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how crazy is this
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I was hoping for more international input. I get the question everything. 1918 is relevant and should be understood — if only! Seems to me if we are going to talk about dealing with it just maybe we should start with what the most successful have to say. Hong Kong, South Korea, Norway, Japan… they clearly have something figured out that we just don’t get in America.

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how crazy is this wrote:

I was hoping for more international input. I get the question everything. 1918 is relevant and should be understood -- if only! Seems to me if we are going to talk about dealing with it just maybe we should start with what the most successful have to say. Hong Kong, South Korea, Norway, Japan... they clearly have something figured out that we just don't get in America.

I recently heard on TV that only 45% of Americans wear a face mask when they are around people that they don't live with.

Also, I think the U.S. might be one of only a few countries that have politicized science.

That and the lack of good leadership at the very top is part of the reason why the U.S. is doing so poorly.

The people in countries that are doing very well most likely wear face masks around people that they don't live with, trust science, and have good leadership at the very top.

It's not rocket science.

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Rexlion wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
…Eg, Medical Authorities once truly believed that ailments can be cured by either drilling holes in your skull to let out the evil spirits ‘til your head looked like a wiffleball….

Huh? You mean, that doesn’t actually work?? LOL

Seems like a useful treatment. If nothing else, the patient could stick a Noctigon K1 in his mouth, turn it on, and create a starry display on the ceiling……

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Hank
Here is the part of that same article that drives all of us crazy.

Quote:
Provisional death counts are weighted to account for incomplete data. However, data for the most recent week(s) are still likely to be incomplete. Weights are based on completeness of provisional data in prior years, but the timeliness of data may have changed in 2020 relative to prior years, so the resulting weighted estimates may be too high in some jurisdictions and too low in others. As more information about the accuracy of the weighted estimates is obtained, further refinements to the weights may be made, which will impact the estimates. Any changes to the methods or weighting algorithm will be noted in the Technical Notes when they occur. More detail about the methods, weighting, data, and limitations can be found in the Technical Notes.
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raccoon city wrote:

how crazy is this wrote:

I was hoping for more international input. I get the question everything. 1918 is relevant and should be understood — if only! Seems to me if we are going to talk about dealing with it just maybe we should start with what the most successful have to say. Hong Kong, South Korea, Norway, Japan… they clearly have something figured out that we just don’t get in America.


I recently heard on TV that only 45% of Americans wear a face mask when they are around people that they don’t live with.


Also, I think the U.S. might be one of only a few countries that have politicized science.


That and the lack of good leadership at the very top is part of the reason why the U.S. is doing so poorly.


The people in countries that are doing very well most likely wear face masks around people that they don’t live with, trust science, and have good leadership at the very top.


It’s not rocket science.

That sums it up well, along with nationwide social distancing mandates, and high compliance rates. See also the above posts about New Zealand a few screens back.

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Lightbringer wrote:
There’s this thing called “informed consent”. Even if a drug’s used off-label, if you know the risks and are willing to take them, you should be allowed to.

The problem, as usual, is that Our Benevolent Masters™ made that determination for us, that no, even if you want to, or need to, you won’t be allowed to.

Much better to overinflate peoples’ lungs to the bursting point instead, even if it kills them. (And it usually does.)

You’re missing the point. It’s not a simple matter of determining what dosage & mixture with other substances is appropriate to be effective and safe. You approve HCQ and then wait for the chaos to reign as many doctors don’t come up with the “winning” combination, if at all. It failed in France & other countries in this regard so they abandoned it.
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how crazy is this wrote:
I was hoping for more international input. I get the question everything. 1918 is relevant and should be understood — if only! Seems to me if we are going to talk about dealing with it just maybe we should start with what the most successful have to say. Hong Kong, South Korea, Norway, Japan… they clearly have something figured out that we just don’t get in America.

Politicization. “You can’t take away my freedom to not wear a mask!” That’s the difference. Ignorance. And arrogance: “Your wearing a mask is a political statement. Take it off!” PIC.

raccoon city wrote:

That and the lack of good leadership at the very top is part of the reason why the U.S. is doing so poorly.


The people in countries that are doing very well most likely wear face masks around people that they don’t live with, trust science, and have good leadership at the very top.


It’s not rocket science.


No other country has fallen into the quagmire of politicizing medical & earth sciences, like the USA. A certain someone has been at the figure head of doing that, unfortunately the POTUS, with grave results. USA has become a laughing stock to the international community.
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Joshk wrote:
Am I alone in anticipating a sharp rise in death once we get to flu season?
With flu as the “pre-existing condition”, just add Covid, and things get deadly. And you can even catch them both from the same person at the same time. Shocked
Since I thought of it first, I want to name these double-spreaders. Let’s call them grim-reapers.

In Victoria and I think most other states of Australia, flu season has been a non-event. A combination of high vaccine uptake in March/April and Covid induced improvement in hand hygiene, social distancing and mask wearing as suggested and/or legislated by state governments. Ymmv in USA flu season
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Sigh. I know.

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Yesterday’s Nevada super spreader is a good example of poor leadership during a pandemic.

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No other country has fallen into the quagmire of politicizing medical & earth sciences, like the USA. A certain someone has been at the figure head of doing that, unfortunately the POTUS, with grave results. USA has become a laughing stock to the international community.

I think there’s plenty of blame to go around, look at what some of the governors did with the nursing homes. In NY and NJ more than half of the deaths early on happened to people in nursing homes.

The politicizing of the sciences has been going on for decades. It’s driven mostly by the government grant money on both sides. As far as being a laughing stock to the International community. They have plenty of egg on their faces, the WHO is the biggest joke.

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Attacking WHO and laying blame at their feet is in itself politicizing. A small amount of research on the topic will give a clearer picture rather than talking points. I agree that old people in homes were not protected.

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Deputy Dog wrote:
… As far as being a laughing stock to the International community. They have plenty of egg on their faces, the WHO is the biggest joke.

Ah, the all-american political defense. “I can be a p.o.s. because I think you are a p.o.s.”

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shirnask wrote:
I don’t believe that there is any news source without an agenda. Objective journalism, if it ever really existed, died a long time ago and most don’t even pretend anymore.

Freedom of the press is guaranteed only those who own one
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Deputy Dog wrote:
I think there’s plenty of blame to go around, look at what some of the governors did with the nursing homes. In NY and NJ more than half of the deaths early on happened to people in nursing homes.

The politicizing of the sciences has been going on for decades. It’s driven mostly by the government grant money on both sides. As far as being a laughing stock to the International community. They have plenty of egg on their faces, the WHO is the biggest joke.

Some nursing homes were ill prepared & didn’t react fast enough. Those became the showcase that made it seem like the entire collection of NY/NJ nursing homes were death traps. Just like the few protests that suffered riots, painted as the entire movement was violent (it hasn’t been). Of course, politicizing of science has always happened—it’s the degree of it. Especially on critical factors. There are still climate change deniers scoffing at the wild fires of the west in the USA, claiming “poor forest management”. No. Management policies & manning haven’t had any drastic changes. The climatology data is the only dynamically changing factor here. Droughts like never before seen in those regions. The WHO has its notable share of problems, but their interfacing with China was flawed. Not transparent as with other countries, and too much info directly given, without proper scrutiny. So the WHO echoed China’s messaging, the worst about their allegedly being “very limited risk of human-to-human transmission of the virus.” However, in 2003, the WHO properly called out China for its lack of preparedness & transparency. The organization does work & serve a purpose. It needs “correction.” USA refuses to lead on this.
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To be fair, the governors in NY, PA, etc. were following guidance from the federal and state health authorities, who feared a shortage of hospital beds and recommended putting a priority on keeping hospital beds free for new admissions. The nursing homes were told they should isolate people who tested positive from the other residents. Many nursing homes failed to do that, for various reasons. Also, many nursing home residents were infected by staff, not by other residents.

Some states, like MN, actually had a higher percentage of their COVID-19 cases in nursing homes without an order from the governor similar to those issued in other states. That was in part because their health departments were moving active COVID cases to nursing homes due to the same concern about hospital bed capacity being inadequate to meet the coming demand.

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If they were active covid cases then why be moved at all. Just because of their age?

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moderator007 wrote:
I have avoided this thread because I had figured it would turn political at some point, kudo’s for keeping it within the rules. All we know about this is what we have been feed. I have seen alot of controversy on what each or any side is saying they know. Even the numbers that we see each day are all over the place depending on where you look. I have heard of people locally dying in a motorcycle crash that was contributed to covid, no joke. I have heard of a local hospital (as a experiment) that sent in unused test that come back positive for covid. I have heard that wearing a mask doesn’t help and then heard it does. My local hospital believes that unless its a N95 or equivalent for its employee’s, its not doing a thing even though they manditated wearing any kind of mask for everyone else. I have seen doctors dealing with this virus with a different opinion than the establishment get banned from certain media outlets. . My point is who do you believe, almost everything we know (unless you have had hands on experience) about covid is only what we have been told or read. The News isn’t reporting on “This is what happened today” anymore, it’s changed to “This is what we think happened today” or “This is all we are going to tell you happened today”. It gets harder and harder ever day to figure out what’s fact or just someone’s opinion. Like I said before we only know what we are feed, its up to us to use common sense to figure out what the truth is. . Sometimes when someone tells you something that seems odd do you ever stop and say “why did they tell me that”. There’s usually a reason why they said it. Its up to you to figure out why. Just my two cents Silly

Well 007, looks like this tread has outlived it’s usefulness. More politics than science.

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pennzy wrote:
If they were active covid cases then why be moved at all. Just because of their age?

See post #5657

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NorthernHarrier wrote:
pennzy wrote:
If they were active covid cases then why be moved at all. Just because of their age?

See post #5657


So old people weren’t worthy of a hospital bed? Make room for a person that has more chance of living?
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I think we became expendable.

Keep your nose in the wind and your eyes along the skyline.
Del Gue

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pennzy wrote:
NorthernHarrier wrote:
pennzy wrote:
If they were active covid cases then why be moved at all. Just because of their age?

See post #5657


So old people weren’t worthy of a hospital bed? Make room for a person that has more chance of living?

No, the idea and direction from the authorities was to take stable patients who didn’t have the worst cases and transfer them to nursing homes so that hospitals could have beds available for as many as possible of the more acutely sick patients that were expected that needed immediate emergency intervention. We’re evaluating their decisions with the benefit of knowing exactly how many hospital intensive care unit beds were needed in June and later – but they didn’t have that information before then, nor did they anticipate that many nursing homes would not be honest or not be realistic about whether they were prepared to handle residents with the virus in a safe way.

The states were obviously not equipped with either the knowledge or the resources to develop safe, effective policies and implement them. But they had no choice, as there was no federal government program to address the projected hospital bed shortage, and little federal government guidance on the problems faced by the states.

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This is an analytical video of politics in America by Second Thought on YouTube.
The comment section on the video also stayed very healthy, so I am not anticipating any flare-ups here in this thread. I will delete if things get dicey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecGmdFGL4sY

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The states were obviously not equipped with either the knowledge or the resources to develop safe, effective policies and implement them. But they had no choice, as there was no federal government program to address the projected hospital bed shortage in ICU’s, and little federal government guidance on the problems faced by the states.

So pass the buck?

I thought we fought a war over State’s rights, do we need a war over State’s responsibility as well?

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xevious wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
There’s this thing called “informed consent”. Even if a drug’s used off-label, if you know the risks and are willing to take them, you should be allowed to.

The problem, as usual, is that Our Benevolent Masters™ made that determination for us, that no, even if you want to, or need to, you won’t be allowed to.

Much better to overinflate peoples’ lungs to the bursting point instead, even if it kills them. (And it usually does.)

You’re missing the point. It’s not a simple matter of determining what dosage & mixture with other substances is appropriate to be effective and safe. You approve HCQ and then wait for the chaos to reign as many doctors don’t come up with the “winning” combination, if at all. It failed in France & other countries in this regard so they abandoned it.

Using drugs off-label is done all the time.

But there’s a difference between taking no position and letting people (whose lives are ultimately on the line!) roll the dice that using the drug will cure and not kill, and absolutely forbidding anyone from using it at all.

A “non-professional” (non-EMT, etc.) giving someone CPR can actually crack ribs, and if done really wrong can actually puncture the lungs and/or heart. Would you favor banning CPR by “non-professionals” because it might do more harm than good, vs letting the person almost surely die?

There is, or at least should be, a sacred relationship between patient and doctor. If both are informed, and both consent, that HCQ and whatever mix of Zn and vitamins, etc., can help if the patient came down with the kung flu, who in Hell are politicians to refuse to let them go that route??

We’re not talking “alternative therapy” like proclaiming bleachwater and soothing music will cure it, but something that was tried and reported to work. Just because 25 double-blind studies weren’t done doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be tried. Probably more people would die from lack of HCQ-related therapy than any who supposedly got the wrong dosage. And that’s political. Even if Fauci plays dumb and says “We don’t know for sure if it’ll work”, Cuomo mugs for the camera and absolutely forbids it.

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Deputy Dog wrote:
I think there’s plenty of blame to go around, look at what some of the governors did with the nursing homes. In NY and NJ more than half of the deaths early on happened to people in nursing homes.

Absolutely. Ordering that was tantamount to murder.

You had old-timers who were in fragile condition as it was, sequestered, the staff was being screened and used proper hygiene, and then those homes were ordered to take in patients known to have the bug and ended up killing off those who would have stayed safe and alive and bug-free.

Well, that’s one way to reduce SSI payouts…

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Deputy Dog wrote:
Quote:
The states were obviously not equipped with either the knowledge or the resources to develop safe, effective policies and implement them. But they had no choice, as there was no federal government program to address the projected hospital bed shortage in ICU’s, and little federal government guidance on the problems faced by the states.

So pass the buck?

I thought we fought a war over State’s rights, do we need a war over State’s responsibility as well?

The state governments didn’t pass the buc, as I explained in my post.

As for the alleged “war over states’ rights,” I won’t go off topic other than to suggest the best one-volume book about the USA civil war, which describes the USA in the years preceding, during, and immediately after the war, and explains why the war happened: “Battle Cry of Freedom,” by James M. McPherson.

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Where was it tried and reported to work?

how crazy is this
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Deputy Dog wrote:
The politicizing of the sciences has been going on for decades. It’s driven mostly by the government grant money on both sides. As far as being a laughing stock to the International community. They have plenty of egg on their faces, the WHO is the biggest joke.

Government grant money on both sides? The 3 most damaging examples of the perversion of science that I can think of were executed by private money.

1. The sugar industry bought scientists to obfuscate legitimate science showing the harmful effects of added sugar in our food supply and create a false narrative blaming fat.

2. The tobacco industry bought scientists to obfuscate legitimate science showing the harmful effects of tobacco and perhaps more importantly launched an effective campaign questioning science. (Blaming government grants etc…)

3. The fossil fuel industry and their allies in the media bought recycled the playbook from the tobacco industry to discredit the legitimate science of climate change.

Where would the US have ended up if they would have simply accepted the testing protocols developed in Germany and published by the WHO rather than loose the valuable time they lost fixing the broken wheel they unnecessarily created in the first place?

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how crazy is this wrote:
Deputy Dog wrote:
The politicizing of the sciences has been going on for decades. It’s driven mostly by the government grant money on both sides. As far as being a laughing stock to the International community. They have plenty of egg on their faces, the WHO is the biggest joke.

Government grant money on both sides? The 3 most damaging examples of the perversion of science that I can think of were executed by private money.

1. The sugar industry bought scientists to obfuscate legitimate science showing the harmful effects of added sugar in our food supply and create a false narrative blaming fat.

2. The tobacco industry bought scientists to obfuscate legitimate science showing the harmful effects of tobacco and perhaps more importantly launched an effective campaign questioning science. (Blaming government grants etc…)

3. The fossil fuel industry and their allies in the media bought recycled the playbook from the tobacco industry to discredit the legitimate science of climate change.

Where would the US have ended up if they would have simply accepted the testing protocols developed in Germany and published by the WHO rather than loose the valuable time they lost fixing the broken wheel they unnecessarily created in the first place?

That actually sounds like the answer our governor would give. I guess the key to your statement is, that you “can think of”. But… then again, the Bill of Rights is over our governors paygrade Facepalm his words not mine. I’m sure you would have agreed that closing state parks was following the science as well, right?

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