You hear it all the time around here and on other forums: buy ONLY LSD batteries, Eneloops are the only NiMH batteries worth buying, etc, etc. But lately.I’ve really started to question that whole school of thought. I don’t deny that there were (and continue to be) some fairly hideous non-LSD batteries out there. But lately, I’ve also found some good ones. For AAA batteries, I REALLY like the 1000mAH Japanese made Duracells. These batteries really DO live up to their 1000mAH capacity and can produce every bit as much current without sagging as Duraloops. But they last 20% longer, which is MUCH appreciated in a small, low capacity battery. And since I’m likely to drain them in a relatively short time, who cares if they are still holding a charge after a year?
I’ve also learned to REALLY appreciate my Tenergy Premium C cells. Before, I used nothing but LSD Centuras. And although they have never done me wrong, I just really like that extra half hour to hour (depending on the exact use) that I get from Premiums vs Centuras. Remember that recharging is not always feasible when your batteries go dead. When I’m out hiking at night, for instance, this can mean the difference between needing to carry extra batteries and not needing them (and having to change them in the dark). Or knowing that, if I DO carry extra batteries, I will also get longer life from those (if need be).
So what about that dreaded high self discharge you get from non-LSD batteries? Within at least a few day’s time, I notice little to any self discharge in non-LSD batteries. Six month down the road, I’m SURE that my non-LSD batteries will be dead (or largely so). But you know what? I will have charged them LONG before then. LSD or not, I don’t count on batteries that haven’t been charged for a coulle of months. If I’m going on a hike or going to be needing a light for a job, I’m going to charge those batteries beforehand regardless. There have actually been VERY FEW situations where I have needed a battery that han’t been charged in months to
actually have a significant charge.
So what do you think? Do you feel like LSD is really worth it? Or, guven the way that you use batteries, do you feel that more capapcity is more important?
Very true. My point here is that the use of non-LSD batteries is highly discouraged to the point that many people don’t buy them even when they might better fill their needs. In the end, a mix of different battery types might be the best idea possible. But think of how many people won’t buy anything but an Eneloop or use Eneloops in C/D adaptors (despite poorer performance vs real C/D batteries) because they have been taught to believe that everything else is garbage. This certainly isn’t a knock on Eneloops. I’ve NEVER been done wrong by my Duraloops. But I certainly would not consider them the best battery for ALL situations.
With all due respect, the title should be “Are LSD batteries really necessary?” if you use your cells that way.
LSDs are designed with a purpose in mind. Not taking advantage of that feature is no longer the fault of the manufacturer.
( and I’m not saying you are!)
I have had very good luck with both the Tenergy non LSD C and D cells.The black top duracell aaa have worked well for me also.All of my AA’s are eneloop or Duraloops though, haven’t bothered with non LSD AA,s.
For me, eneloops are worth it. I am happy with their capacity and I don’t find things need charging before I can use them, which can be really annoying. Maybe if I was using them every single day like one might in camera flashes then I’d choose higher capacity over LSD feature.
Most of us would be slow to admit our preference for eneloops was based on anything less than fact and/or actual experience demonstrating superiority. Before joining BLF, I spent a lot of time on CPF (reading, scared to post) and up to then, had never heard of eneloops. Not being able to purchase them locally (finally found at Costco) only confirmed my growing belief they were better.
Even now, with knowledge enough to know better, I cast a downward eye toward any non-LSD battery. I think it strange, and entirely normal that I allow a premium label, higher price and a few words from "experts" to continue feeling more wise for choosing LSD. A girl at work a few months ago saw me changing out the white labeled eneloops in my camera and said, "oh, those are nice." Knows nothing about batteries but obviously concludes they must be better than an Energizer.
Foy knows better yet it has been almost three years since I have purchased a non-LSD battery. (apart from li-on, of course) For me, if there is something better, or more accurately, something I think is better, I have great difficulty choosing the lesser.
Never said it was the fault of the manufacturer. Interstingly, the manufacturer only says that LSD batteries hold a charge longer. It’s actually just individuals who make claims that LSD batteries are of a more robust design, and that non-LSD batteries quickly lose capacity, quickly increase self discharge rate, and quickly build internal resistance. But I’ve NEVER seen any testing that confirms that these are indeed characteristics of ALL non-LSD batteries (rather than just a few bad ones or older designs).
Only the white top LSD Duracells. Duracell also sells non-LSD 1000mAH AAA and 2450mAH AA batteries which are made in Japan. These cells have black tops rather than white tops. And these AREN’T Eneloops (although some believe the 2450mAH AA batteries may be rebadged Eneloop XX’s).
I've never heard anyone say they didn't like or had a problem with eneloops .
Name me 4 other products on the planet that have such a loyal fan base . there reputation speaks for itself .
If you have a cordless phone that is always on the charger or something that always gets charged than a non lsd battery makes sense . my life just doesn't work that way .Stuff sits around getting neglected and it's nice when it still works . My non LSD AA's are always the worst batteries of the bunch .i can tell when a light has them in it because they are always prematurely going dead ....
I have about ten old sanyo AA cells from 15~20 years ago that have outlasted every single nimh I've ever owned (lots)...Hard to argue with success .
If you're going to buy a non LSD battery at least buy sanyo /panasonic/duraloop. rayoavc and energizers are junk compared to them
eneloop is a brand developed by Sanyo encompassing rechargeable batteries and associated devices, introduced to the market in November 2005.[1] The batteries are low self-discharge NiMH, which lose their charge much more slowly than traditional NiMH batteries; 10% in the first year, compared to about 20% on the first day and 1-4% on every successive day. The eneloop batteries are sold pre-charged and can be used immediately, while traditional NiMH batteries lose their charge so quickly that this isn't feasible. Due to the number of alkaline batteries they can replace during their lifecycle, they are marketed as being eco-friendly when used appropriately.<< WIKI
The question is are they over rated ?? i think they are maybe over rated a bit by those in the know and under rated by the general populous who are almost always pleasently surprised to find out that nimh rechargable batteries don't have to be considered worthless because they are always found dead in the bottom of the drawer .
I remember when I told my brother who is somewhat green(Eco -friendly) and a little bit anal .Who had spent hours charging and making notes as to when batteries were charged ,voltages etc ...and forever finding them dead ..he stared at me like I HAD handed him the divinci code OR the holy grail itself .."WHAAAT ???? "75% a year later ?? OMG .
Wow, non-LSD cells hold 50% of their charge after a year!
I have had a mediocre to bad experience with non-LSD cells, as they would basically be empty in a week.
I used to have a P and S camera that would have a high current draw, but the non-LDS cells would sag a lot, tripping the low voltage detection and shutting off. LSD cells have a lower internal resistance, so they don’t sag as much, running my camera for longer, even though it only had a 70% capacity of the non-LSD cells.
In aa and aaa flashlights, I always use LSD.
I do not charge my batteries before using a flashlight (sometimes no electricity :bigsmile: ). My experience tells me that the best choice for AA flashlight is a LSD battery ( I use panasonic evolta y eneloop)
They are not overrated in the slightest, my biggest gripe is that the self discharge rate is not constant, i’ll have some i charged months ago that are at 80% so thats great, but if i use them, recharge them and want to use them next month, that same battery is down to 40% or occasionally even dead. This sometimes happens and sometimes doesn’t. Eneloop and duracell LSD batteries are predictable, they always self drain at the same rate, and i know this from hundreds of uses with times of 1 month to 8 months between charge and use over the last almost decade.
The randomness in self discharge rate also increases as the cells get older
There are times i wanted the extra capacity of non LSD so i will charge them today for use tomorrow because i have a busy day with lots of GPS or camera use, and by tomorrow they could be at 99% or 60%. I cannot rely on them to do my job which means no paycheck or worse. In general i can leave them on the charger after finishing and make sure they say 1.42V or more before pulling them off the charger the next day (been trickle charging all night) and putting them in the device and hoping they don’t lose too much juice during the day, with reasonable but not ubberly reliable results
Its just easier to have 2 sets of eneloop or duracell lsd, and having relied on the fact they won’t self discharge more then expected during the day i have no problems
I have several brands of non lsd nimh and they all behave this way, some are much worse then others but not a single one are as reliable as the duracell lsd or eneloop.
The self discharge numbers given on the eneloop packages for non lsd batteries are nonsense IMO designed to be a simple approximation for non battery people to understand. If its an average of some test they did i assume the standard deviation was HUGE
Definitely some valuable learning and great takeaways here! Was following a number of LSD related discussion when deciding what cells to get (finally settled for Turnigy LSD NiMH), and really admire the persistence of some who run really long tests to determine the charge holding capabilities of different cells. While no expert, overall impression I gathered, seems to show that LSD does have its merits.
I would think any post "daring to question" whether our beloved Eneloops (yes, I know you said LSD cells) are worthwhile would be bound to generate some differences of opinion.
I must admit to purchasing pretty much nothing but Eneloops since they were released and over that time, I have found them to be of very high quality. This to me is just as important as the LSD factor.
Some of the non-LSD cells do indeed have higher capacity but I'm prepared to forgo that for not having to keep track of when I last charged them. I usually have no problem taking spare cells to most of the places I go so the extra runtime of the higher capacity cells isn't a big factor for me. YMMV
I don't think there is much of a question that the Eneloops have proven to be extremely robust, reliable and capable of sustained high current drain. Unless severely abused, you can be fairly sure that they will just work whenever you need them.
With all of the cheap, overstated, no-name brands on the market I find it easier to simply tell people to get Eneloops or Powerex Imedions and be done with it. The cost savings reaped from experimenting with cheap ebay cells just don't outweigh the hassle of not being sure what you are getting or how they will perform over time.
It's always good to hear of other brands that people have had success with. Tenergy, Centura and Duraloop are not common here but Eneloops can be found in most major retailers.
I'll still continue to recommend Eneloops or Imedions to anyone who asks, especially non-flashaholics who are less likely to be bothered tracking when they last charged their cells. The older non-LSD varieties did much to generate an aversion to rechargeables over primaries. I'm just trying to reverse that a little.
Hi, a valid point made by stormin matt although maybe the title could be a little different. heres my opinion on things. just about the best overall LSD battery (aa) is the standard eneloop. they have a proven record ( some people with year 2006 cells still report over 1750mah capacity) although the lsd has gone up a little… they have a higher discharge voltage than virtually ANY other aa nimh cell … can return lots of proven cycles…there size means they fit in just about anything (the larger mah cells dont) …you can basically kick the crap out of them yet they still keep going. so unless “on the day/very soon ” capacity is the be all and end all… theres no reason in my opinion to NOT buy eneloops.
It’s less of a question as to whether they are worthwhile than it is a question as to whether LSD batteries are the only ones to consider buying. I think my point is that I feel like most people don’t use other batteries because of bad experiences had with them in the past. For instance, the whole thing that someone here posted about non-LSD batteries losing 25% of their charge overnight and 1-4% per day was put out by Sanyo when they introduced the Eneloop back in 2005. Honestly, when I consider newer, quality non-LSD batteries that I have, NONE are anywhere CLOSE to this bad. In fact, within a week’s time, all are pretty much still fully charged. In fact, if you go here , you will see that it takes over THREE MONTHS for a Tenergy Premium battery to self discharge to the point that it has less capacity than a LSD Tenergy Centura. And even after 18 months, they’re not completely dead. Although time will tell if these batteries last five years, it would at least appear that non-LSD batteries have NOT sat still since the introduction of Eneloops and other LSD batteries. Yes, there will always be cheap, ebay batteries. But anything halfway decent appears to be WORLDS better than what was available 10 years ago. It is for THIS reason that I question whether LSD batteries are universally the best choice like people make them out to be.
I guess I should note that brand seems to be VERY important with non-LSD batteries. For instance, I have my 1000mAH Duracell AAA batteries. They’re EXCELLENT! I haven’t checked to see how much of a charge they hold after, say, two months. But after a week or two, they’re still basically fully charged. They hold a true 1000mAH. And when I run them in my Tank 007, they will get that thing hot and bright like nothing else! On the other hand, I have some Ansmann 1100mAH non-LSD batteries. These are nowhere NEAR as good as the Duracells. They’re NOT 1100mAH. And after a couple of weeks, they’ve lost about 33% charge. Even fully charged, they just don’t seem to kick out the power like the Duracells. Tenergy Premiums are also good.
Scared :* WTF