I want to order a D4SV2 but my first choice, 5000k XP-L Hi emitters, is still unavailable. Is there some combo of the currently available XP-L Hi emitters that would approximate 5000k? I do not plan to get the tint-ramping version.
I wonder what 2 x 4000k and 2 x 6500k would look like. Based on the bins I should get just slightly more output than if I went all 4000k.
You would get 5250k. Personally I would go for the 4000k’s, they’re great. But if you prefer cooler tints, fair enough
Hmm is it really just the average of the 4 emitters? I didn’t expect it to behave that predictably in practice.
I have a number of warmer tints in my collection that I love. But I’m trying to configure this light for maximum sustainable output and the warmer bins offered by Hank have slightly lower maximum output. I don’t like 6500k that much which is why I was kicking around the idea of mixing emitters. Maybe XPL-HI 6500k isn’t as angry blue as the SST-40 emitters I’ve seen in person…gonna go look up some beamshots.
5250 nice.
It’s not exactly the average, using Osram color calculator :
6500K 420lm (V3) + 4000K 400lm (V2) = 5060K
Though in reality they wont be exactly 6000 and 4000K, and with Vf difference it can push the mixed CCT up or down.
edit : typo
I think the 2x4000k and 2x6500k mix would look good.
My experience is that you can average the CCTs for an approximation. So, this average would be ~5250k. Now it might be a little higher because the 6500k emitter has a little more output, but it will be close.
I happen to have similar lights with XPL HI emitters in 5A, 3A, and 1A. If I shine the 5A and 1A together, and compare with the 3A, the mix is a little higher CCT (as expected) with a lower Duv (makes the 3A appear a little green).
Tint mixing is a great way to get the CCT and Duv that you like. I have lights with Nichia 219b tints using XPL HI and LH351D emitters! I usually target ~4500k. A favorite FW3A tint has XPL HI emitters: 2x3D + 1x7A. Another favorite is an Astrolux S43S with 2X3D + 2x5A.
FB
This doesn’t seem right? Typo?
You get close to the average. For example, the 2x3D + 1x7A is just slightly higher CCT than a 5A3. Both in FW3A lights.
If you estimate the CCTs of 3D and 7A and average them, you come up with something around the Cree 5A, 4D border.
Need my Opple to arrive so I can give you numbers…
FB
yes typo sorry, 5060K.
The result is always warmer than the average, with CCT wider appart the distance from the average is larger.
if you want to try with Osram color calculator it’s a free software, first calculate x,y from CTT and duv in “other calculations”, then “calculate photometry from x y and lumens”
Thanks for sharing your tint-mixing experiences. When using tint mixed lights up close can you see that quadrants of the beam are different tints? I guess 2850k x 1, 4000k x 1 and 6500kx2 should technically get me close to 5000k but I don’t know if the loss in lumens would be worth it or not.
You really can’t see the different tints in the beam with a multi-emitter TIR until you get close. With the FW3A optic, the difference is pretty obvious at 6” from a white wall, but fades to almost gone by 12”. You can still see it a little in the spill artifacts if you really look.
It really depends on the optic. I have a similar mix with shaved LH351D emitters in a FWAA. That optic is floodier and the different tints are almost completely blended together by 6” away from a white wall.
Reflectors require a little more distance to fully blend. Again, it depends on how tight the spot is. The Niwalker MiniMax comes with two different tints in two separate reflectors. This is about worst case for blending (but great for comparing tint mixing with different LEDs ;-)) . You can see the individual tints at about 2’, but they are blended nicely by about 4’.
If you want something close to 5000k, I would do the 2x6500k + 2x4000k. The calculator thefreeman showed above shows that IF the emitters were exactly 6500k and 4000k, you would get 5060k. Very close to the 5000k you were after.
I just looked at the D4SV2 options. You would be mixing a 1A and 5D. A little above 6500k and a little below 4000k. I think this would make a very nice, negative duv, 5000k mix.
I just compared the 1A, 5A mix with a Nichia 219b sw45k 9080. The mix is close in tint at medium drive levels. A little higher CCT but with similar duv. At higher drive levels, the Nichia is pinker. This is a known trait of the 219B when you push it hard (2.8A in this case).
Think of it like this. If you prefer a close to neutral duv, near the black body locust light, you would probably prefer a 3A or 3D tint. If you prefer a negative duv with a little magenta/pink tint, you would prefer the 1A+5D mix.
Thanks for bringing up this topic. I’ve been meaning to start a thread on tint mixing but never got to it. One of my favorite recent purchases is a Sofirn IF25 that has variable tint mixing with SST20 LEDs: 2x2700k + 2x6500k. I don’t really like either of those tints, but mixed together, they are very nice (on higher drive levels). It does have SST20 LEDs, so they look great at higher current drive but a bit green on lower levels. So I’m in the process of swapping the LEDs to shaved LH351D. The 351D is much more consistent across drive levels. I plan to use high CRI versions at 3000k and 5700k.
FB
Wow this has all been really helpful. And I think I understood most of that but you lost me a bit with with this section:
What is a “black body locust light”? I also don’t see 3A or 3D as options on Hank’s site.
Regarding tint, I have seen some horrendous green. Enough to know that too much is bad. On the other hand, I think a beam that’s too pink looks weird too. So neutral is probably the way to go for me.
Oops typo! Black body locus. Not a scary looking grasshopper!
I prefer a negative duv, but not too much. Definitely can be too pink. I think the cree “A” and “D” bins are about right.
Do you have any Nichia 219b lights? They tend to be negative duv (below black body locus). People generally like this. Some people prefer very close to bbl. Few like above (green tints).
- google flashlight wiki
- go to the cree page under LED manufacturers
Or just search for cree chromaticity chart. It is the one that is blue/green in the upper left and hot pink in the lower right. It shows you the common bins that Cree uses.
Bins like 1A, 3D, and sub bins like 5A3. The black body goes right thru the center. So 3D is below and 3C is above.
All manufacturers have similar binning, but use different nomenclature.
FB
I have a brass e07 with 3 1a and 4 5a in the mail ( hopefully ) .
I don’t have any 219b lights yet. I have some e21a lights and those are filling the role of higher CRI emitter with lower output at the moment. I plan to get a 219b light eventually but it’s always tempting to stick with what I know. Either way, the 219b is a lower output emitter (right?) so it’s not really in the running for this particular project.
I will check out that chromaticity chart, thanks!
The 219b is a lower output LED. I was just referencing it because it is regarded as being a very nice tint.
I was comparing the 219b SW45k 9080 LED to the XPL HI 1A/5A mix. The tint of the XPL HI mix is very similar with much higher output, but lacks the hi CRI and R9 of the Nichia.
Thought it might serve as a reference for you.
Anyway, good luck. It is difficult to really understand the differences until you have sampled a lot of different LEDs.
FB
By the way, regarding that CREE chromacity chart, I see 5D1, 5D2, 5D3, and 5D4. Do we know which of these sub-bins Hank’s 5D emitters are?
Ok thanks. I just get tunnel vision sometimes. I should have recognized that you were trying to use them as a reference point.
I have several quads and triples that I have built with mixed leds. It does not seem to be a straight average of the tint bins, I suspect that is due to the fact that warmer led’s have slightly lower output numbers. What I have noticed is that the effect on DUV seems to be huge! This is something I do not fully understand yet, but am really reading and trying to fully understand. It appears to me that a moderate (2xsw-35,2xsw-45k) mix actually pulls down the DUV and makes it very consistent through the power output range. The lights that I have built with this mix and that I have purchased with E21A’s mixed at 3500k/5000k have the most amazing tint that is well below the BBL visually and is confirmed as best I can with an Opple meter. I am not posting results from the meter because it is not lab grade and there are folks here that could post real numbers to confirm or deny this theory.
What my eyes see at low output is the pink/ruddy very creamy output and at high output that cast is still there but also becomes very white. Hands down the 219b mix is my favorite and has been for several years. A mix of XP-L Hi 5A2 and 3D is also very pleasing.
I asked Hank a couple of weeks ago because I heard that they were really 5Ax and wanted to confirm as I dearly love 5A2 and 5A3. He confirmed that he is using 5A4 currently. This puts them fully below the BBL and at a CCT that should be very similar 5A3 and on the cool edge of 4000k. Should be very nice, and I am going to have to order a KR4 with them.
no
ime the E21a and 219b have the same output (within 5%)
the more notable difference is that E21a is higher DUV… the Tint is less pink than 219b…
both are 9080 LEDs
I see no benefit to E21a over 219b… in fact, E21a is harder to work with, and requires a special mcpcb… whereas the 219b uses a common XP footprint…