So what is your point? Does my friend and others who do that need psychological evaluation?!
Your analogy of comparing a Jet Pilot risking 70 lives compared to one person putting a solder blob on is not that compelling.
Do you think your opinion is going to stop people who’ve done this for a long time?
It’s a matter of being right. Everyone wants to be right. Sometimes there is no right or wrong. Sometimes it’s just fear based. Where is the proof of someone who put a solder blob on and it blowing up or venting?
I never heard of any. Only Vapors using the wrong battery or putting it in their pocket with other metal objects.
Use of an Activated flux (eg acid) plus higher soldering iron temperature is required to solder to nickel plated surfaces, otherwise it will be called “unsolderable metal” and cold solder joints and solder balls will be the result.
The positive terminal of a cell has a plastic gasket in the crimp that can be damaged by high temperatures. Also the cell is a closed volume, so any increase in the internal temperature such as from soldering will increase the internal pressure, which could cause the over-pressure relief valve to vent. These are some reasons why the cell manufacturers warn against soldering.
Member Barkuti has posted about using low melting point Rose’s alloy as a method to add solder and not put much heat into a cell.
My point is - it is a risk, and it is not “proven safe” just because it did not cause issues for you (yet?).
If you want to take this risk is your call obviously, but being aware that the risk exist, instead of misleading yourself with “it worked for 100 times, it must be safe”, is always useful.
It is also always a great idea to avoid endangering others when doing things like this. This is why i gave that link. If you manage to burn down apartment complex or some public building with faulty cell it will hurt more people than just yourself. I’ve seen people do that with electrically unsafe mining rigs, killing whole families with children and everything in the process. They thought it was fine before it caught fire too…
And no, i have no interest in “being right” here, it is just that what you’ve said sounded so very familiar to me, regardless of specific topic (batteries). If you think it is just fear or i am simply stupid it is, again, your call…
Then maybe your soldering iron is not hot enough.
I never have problems with soldering Nickel with normal flux core solder, but i do use Lead based solder, which flows betterand is easier to work with than Lead free solder.
If necessay i can add some extra flux, i have a syringe with flux for that, but i can’t remenber having to use it for soldering Nickel.
My iron is around 370°C (according to the dial, it has no display).
1. Not sure if you realize it but I do not know how to solder. I mentioned it at least once in here.
2. The people that make them have tons of experience and I have faith in them.
I also have faith in God I’m not going to worry about something that has never happened and is very unlikely to happen.
I will be 63 years old in the beginning of June, there’s a lot more to worry about and be concerned about than a solder blob on a cell.
If these cells were to go bad they would have gone bad several years ago. Because I’ve charged them and used them many many times.
3. No offense but you’re talking to me like I’m an idiot saying that I should know the risks. I knew the risks long long before you joined here! Got to have some banter in there!
4. We can agree to disagree let’s move on.
I see you just joined.
Welcome!
Have you read some of the posts on here from the veterans who still put solder blobs on?
What’s your background with lithium ion batteries and flashlights? How much experience do you have young man?
Have a good weekend.
P.S. one thing I still work on is I explain myself too much. Sometimes the best explanation is no explanation/response.
You’re absolutely right. That’s the reason I started this thread. One already fell off I could probably flick it off with my finger! Very feeble work from a known dealer in the United States who I will not name.
I stopped solder blobbing.
The solder can get chewed rough by battery springs and oxidize, compromizing the electrical parh, especially with bare brass disk contacts on the driver.
I don’t use bare brass contacts anymore either.
I have a bunch of “gold filled” (gold plated) brass beads i can solder on drivers or batteries.
I only need a few sets of button tops for long battery tube lights or 2x 18350 lights.
Batteries in series config are going out of fashion in flashlights.
There are good boost drivers and high discharge cells for that now.
I don’t have the skills that a lot of you guys have. Because I don’t know how to solder.
I have numerous lights that have three and four cell carriers and they have to be button tops or they won’t connect properly.
These 25S are intended for light I bought off a friend he only had a couple weeks. Ace beam X65vn Mini.
10,000 lumens and 550Kcd
I have two sets of batteries for it now.VTC5D and Molicel P26.The 25S are in storage and were to be in storage until I needed them.
The only reason I got these 25s is because they were on sale and they’re great batteries so I trusted the dealers employee to put button tops on correctly! We know how that worked out.
That’s bad.
Hard to believe he thought he did a good job.
Maybe it was done by a new employee.
Yes, some carriers and even some single cell lights need a button top.
It’s a safety precaution, but it’s annoying too…
So you’re not considering to buy a soldering kit and develop a new skill?
Then you’re dependent on other folks to do it for you.
But even spot welded button tops can be done badly.
Ideally you would know someone nearby to do it for you.
I could do it, but then you’d have to send the batteries and / or carriers to the Netherlands and pay return shipping as well.
And that, IMO, is a huge mistake. But i am fine with agreeing to disagree.
Sorry if it comes across that way. It is not true at all.
Thing is, my day job is… let’s just say it is related to safety in life-critical applications. That’s why i’ve studied the report about that plane article on which i’ve linked earlier and remembered it immediately when i saw your post. Because what you’ve said is exactly what that captain said, so let’s be honest - it triggered me a bit. Stuff like this kills, regularly, regardless of specific case (batteries or something else). But it is also a part of human nature every one of us is susceptible to.
Guess job always affects our views, so again sorry if it comes across like i am being a self-confident jerk, this is not at all my intention.
Thanks.
I have. I consider it unwise regardless of for how long it worked fine. Primarily for two reasons:
Every cell manufacturer says not to do it.
All you get by doing it is saving a few $. It is my opinion that when you do something risky there at least has to be some reason to do it, some benefit. In this case it is just very small amount of money. Simply not worth it for me.
They are part of the job, being major hazard nowadays. I’ve seen more then a few failed batteries in different ways, for different reasons and with different consequences. I’ve learned to respect what modern lithium batteries are - basically high density energy storage, and not to fool around with them the same way i do not fool around with a can full of gas or propane tank, for example.
That’s just a hobby, not really a huge amount of experience here but i am fascinated by what modern tech allows us to do, given not so long ago kerosene lamp was fairly common and most reasonable option for lighting in areas with no power lines.
I really do not like age as argument on the internet. It is unverifiable an is often misused. I never share mine and always consider it a bad sign when someone does. Sorry.
Is it a bad thing though? It is not, IMO. Talks like this can be fun, as long as everyone involved is reasonable and does not consider it to be a fight/argument.
It seems i read the posts too hastily.
According to the seller the solder didn’t want to stick to the tops.
Now i’m too lazy to look it up, but there are cells that hace an Aluminium top.
You need special flux and special solder for that.
In fact, i recently ordered a box of 130 21700 batteries for solar energy storage purposes.
They have Aluminium tops too, the can only be laser welded or soldered with special flux and solder.
I suppose one could drill a hole in the top and put a short brass screw in there that hardly sticks through the sheet Aluminium tops, but i wouldn’t be too happy putting cells under a pilar drill, even if it can’t go to deep.
It would be kind of exciting though.
I haven’t been able to get in touch with a guy who did the Molicel and Apexiam cells. I have photos of them.
He wasn’t a new employee. He did a half decent job on the VTC5D. Photos of them are
also in my op.
Not considering getting a soldering kit.
The only reason I got these cells because they’re on sale and they’re very good cells. I can get button tops from Lion wholesale and other places.
These cells were like groundhogs day. After 10 Days there was not one tracking scan and I requested a refund. They gave it to me. They said if they arrived, after all the aggravation I could keep them. After 2 weeks they arrived! I opened the box and see the terrible job he did.
I’ve asked a few people on here, if they are willing to fix them I got to look at it like I got them for free. Even so it would be close to $20 shipping back and forth but again with the mindset that I got them for free it would be worth it to me. That is if they have a Generous Heart and Soul and do it at a very very fair price or nothing at all.
Hmm….
I’m not scared of Li-Ion batteries, especially not of the Nickel tube ones like 18650 etcetera.
Should i be?
I am scared of botch jobs, complacency and short cuircuits though.
Yes i have solder blobbed quite a few Nickel tube cells, but Nickel is pretty underwhelming in terms of thermal conductivity and i’ve never had isolation rings (between tube and top) go anywhere near melting while doing it.
Besides, spot welding generates a lot of heat too, albeit in short burtst, but it actually melts the metals together, it gets orange hot (that’s hotter than red hot), but very much localized in tiny areas.
Now i have never seen spotwelding batteries first hand, i haven’t got the equipment for it, but i’m sure the total amount of heat is not less than with soldering.
But perhaps i’m wrong.
Yes, of course battery manufacturers strongly advise against soldering onto the cells.
They would get sued if hey didn’t and some person would botch it up and cause fire and explosions.
But does that mean it can’t be done safely and reliably?
I.m.o. it CAN be done safely and reliably.
And yes, even on the bottom of the cell, but then options for low temp soldering ought to be explored, like soldering with Indium.
I must confess though, i did 2 whole e-bike battery replacements, soldering Nickel strips with normal Sn-Pb solder to the bottoms of the 18650 cells…
You see, there is an air gap between the bottom of the cylinder and the rolled up battery inside.
If you do it fast and with a hot iron, the tube doesn’t even get hot.
Yes, it gets warm, but nothing dramatic.
But then again i’m experienced in soldering, i don’t bake the items for minutes before establishing a joint.
It’s a matter of seconds.
With a short circuit the internals get hot and may fail, with soldering there isn’t much going on with the internals.
Okay, maybe i should never solder onto the bottoms again, but i fail to see what’s “obviously wrong and dangerous” about soldering to the tops.
I’m doubling up and saying both positions are correct .
It’s somewhat irresponsible to even suggest online for people to solder on a cell … and at the same time will say if done correctly it happen in a matter of seconds and solves lots of dumb length issues .
For me it was another ah ha moment when I actually did it and got past the “ saying or believing what you’re supposed to say “
While I agree that using someone’s age to give credence to argument is just a fallacy , my question would be > Have you ever done it or what level of proficiency do you have as far as soldering?
Everyone with a soldering iron has access to dead old cells and can have actual experience too .
An issue for some highly anal people is that they aren’t pretty or perfectly uniform in appearance . Cells that are pulled from packs will suffer scrapes and scuffs tears in the heat shrink etc . I think there are more people out there wanting a “ perfect “ looking cell than you’d think .
Everything has risk . We wouldn’t drive if we weren’t willing to accept some amount of risk . That said don’t drive drunk , don’t text and drive on drugs and don’t think soldering on a cell is risk free .
Do not put them in a vise .. or swallow 18650s
Definitely not. Why be scared? My opinion is that things like this have to be treated with respect and understanding, that’s it.
The same way you should not be scared of driving a car, but you absolutely should drive carefully.
What i am personally scared of are people leaving their phones with half-dead abused batteries charging overnight on a sofa. But telling them that it is dangerous only makes them think i am scared of batteries or “not very smart” in most cases…
Counter intuitively spot welding transfers much less thermal energy into the battery than soldering. Yes, it achieves much higher temperature, but in tiny spots and once that energy is distributed across some material temperature increase is negligible. And perhaps even more importantly - it is consistent.
Thing with soldering is - no matter how fast you do it you are also leaving a molten blob of solder of variable size on a cell, which then heats up the cell noticeably.
IMO - first of all any task which requires “skill and experience” is also prone to human error, and in this case you might get no indication you did something wrong right away. In another words there is no way to be 100% sure you did not cause damage even if it seems like you did everything correctly.
Also there is no guarantee that all the cells are the same. In fact they are almost certainly not. Manufacturers can use different materials and techniques and since they assume batteries are never heated above certain temperature there is no way to tell how soldering might affect different cells. Like they might use a plastic which softens at low temperature or something.
In another words - yes, it works, yes, people do it. But it is still a risk for very questionable benefits. In the end it is just another personal decision if it’s worth doing or not.
Experience with soldering? I’d call it average to low. Enough for simple fixes on modern electronics like (de)soldering flash chip (from) to a motherboard in order to program it in external programmer, replace a few SMD components or a few caps. May be (de)solder a BGA chip like laptop GPU if i am feeling adventurous and have something which i can easily break to work with. I have appropriate tools for it too. But definitely not true professional level.
Have i tried soldering lithium cells - no, as i said i consider it unsafe and not worth the risk. In cases when i needed to build banks or add a spacer i 3d printed holders and spacers instead.
I’ve soldered a lot of blobs onto 18650’s and it’s been quick and easy. Basically I get the iron hot, load the tip with as much solder as I deem enough, and then briefly touch the tip to the battery top. I used to put flux on the battery top but I stopped doing that because it didn’t seem to make any difference. I’ve tried pulling the blobs off with pliers (batteries were drained to less than 1 volt because I was discarding them), and I’ve never been able to pull any off.
I’m not going to say that my way is any better than the way other people do things. However each person has to decide what works for them and then proceed to do that. Stringently telling people not to do things because of, whatever reasons, isn’t effective in my opinion. It’s more effective to lay out the pros/cons and then let the person decide for themself.
Obviously I don’t know if there’s any internal damage but I haven’t noticed anything unusual about the batteries in the past 6 to 7 years I’ve been doing this.
I used to bend a piece of thick wire and then solder that to the battery but it took more work to do and needed more iron contact with the battery. It did look nicer to me though
As people have said there’s risk to many things in life and mitigating it depends on the skill and knowledge of the person doing that thing. I used to shoot 10,000 rounds per year of my hand-loaded rounds and I’m more concerned about reloading than putting a simple blob on a battery. After 30 years of shooting I’ve never had any rounds show excessive pressure or had any squib loads
Well said. I like your custom button top with that wire on top!
I don’t even know how to solder. However, I’ve been getting all the negative feedback as to what could happen. LOL. That’s okay. Because I know guys like you have success and aren’t afraid to continue doing what works.
I have no control over people that want to have control. Other than not reacting and ignoring them. Which isn’t always easy for me to do. They are everywhere!
