If you put only 3 charged batteries in carrier it won’t activate. I knows only 3 batteries however installed in carrier (including hot + you can find through continuity test)
If you put 3 charged batteries in carrier and one bad battery it will carrier LED will light but the light will flash and cut off.
If you put 3 charged batteries in carrier and one very low battery the carrier LED will light and the light will either flash and turn off or run for a little time… “
It might be “designed” for unprotected cells if by “designed” we’re using the criteria of utilizing a battery carrier that’s needlessly shorter than it could have been. It’s does not take all the precautions it should have to prevent issues with unprotected cells, like individual cell voltage monitoring. That makes the light inherently more dangerous than a laptop for example. Laptops use unprotected cells, but monitor individual cell voltage to prevent any cells from being discharged too far. This light does no such thing.
It’s not as simple as you’re trying to paint the picture. Using quality cells isn’t enough. You have to use quality cells with very similar internal resistance and capacity that have seen the same number of discharge/recharge cycles and the same sort of usage. Basically you need to buy at least 4 brand new quality cells from the same lot and use them together in the FF4 exclusively. Ideally you would buy more than 4 new quality cells, test them through several charge and discharge cycles on a quality Li-Ion charger/conditioner and identify the 4 that are the most identical and use them. Then you get to hope that your cells age identically.
All this because Fire-Foxes couldn’t be bothered to make the battery carrier a few mm longer. Fantastic! :Sp
Lips confirmed the carrier is the same as the FF3 carrier and it was confirmed that the FF3 carrier does not monitor individual cell voltage. It monitors the total carrier voltage. If you use 3 full charged and 1 half charged Li-Ion it’s highly likely that you will excessively discharge the one cell, which puts it at risk of venting (with flame) when recharged.
Does it match it’s design criteria ummm yes, does it do ‘what it says on the tin’…yes,so it is as simple as that, if you feel uncomfortable do not go near it simples….
Also cell monitoring by the user is not, as I said, brain surgery, a hobby charger helps, a DMM, there is no need to be paranoid about top quality unprotected cells, no need to go overboard with health and safety… Simple precautions IMO are enough.
By the way unless someone actually dismantles one we actually do not know what circuits are actually in place. All the ‘statements’ are based from translations, as an example, In some communications I have been told one thing then when asking for clarification a different answer is forthcoming.
Further to that maybe lips could send one of his spare carriers (justifiable business expense) to relic who could strip it down and definitively say what is in there.
The FF4 and it’s ilk are not toys, there are a LOT of issues that have to be taken into consideration if overly cautious. One could say don’t get one if of a very nervous disposition. Otherwise no need to go overboard on H&S, Is it necessary to say there are heat issues? Oh FF should give out heatproof gloves to handle the torch and a thermometer to check the temp to make sure it’s cool enough so you can handle it after turning it off and of course bring it indoors… Oh yes Factor 50 sunscreen just in case you shine it on skin. Steel toecap boots just in case it drops on your foot (I broke a toe when I dropped a homemade HID on my foot) Where is the line drawn?
A car is a far more dangerous device but we all don’t get aircraft style checklists out and do pre drive checks every time we go out in one, or do we?
Fair enough, in that case the cells should be closely monitored and match well. With a 4S pack, the low voltage point is dangerously close to a zero volt condition on one cell.
4.2V * 4 = 16.8V (Full charged)
4.2V * 3 + 0V = 12.6V (Three full, one being reverse charged)
3.0V * 4 = 12V (low battery point for four balanced cells)
Based on this worst case scenario, there is a slight overlap in the worst case conditions. This is why I believe it is advisable to use well matched cells and keep track of their charge status.
Just trying to help. I really do not want to see a post about a FF4 explosion.
60W will be drawing a lot of current, . Be very careful when choosing 18650 batteries for FF4 if you want to use 60W frequently.
I wish future Firefox would consider to make it an option for user to use 6*18650.
Let’s say your batteries voltage sag to 3.9V very soon under high current load assuming zero resistance first.
4*3.9 = 15.6V
60W/15.6V = 3.84A
Let’s say your batteries are actually with 0.1ohm resistance. So in total 0.4ohm in series.
3.84A * 0.4ohm = 1.54V
So the actually voltage is not 15.6V, it is 15.6-1.54 = 14.06V
60w/14.06V = 4.27A
From this calculation, it shows that it will be very soon FF4 start drawing 4.27A if you have good batteries, and going up to 5A, 6A eventually when batteries voltage drop.
Ok, the scary part is when your batteries aged over time, let’s say they become 0.2ohm resistance, I have some old batteries having 0.3ohm, total is 0.8ohm in series.
3.84A * 0.8ohm = 3.08V
15.6V - 3.08V = 12.52V
60W/12.52V = 4.79A
So very soon or at the instance of switch on 60W, FF4 will be drawing close to 5A. The harder batteries work, the faster they age.
I would advise keep good monitor on batteries. I saw on Chinese forum, someone tried his FF4 and FF4 is drawing 6.6A with total battery voltage of about 16V at rest.
Not my intention to scare anyone, but just to point out batteries quality are very crucial for 60W application.
No probs will try to find another location without bushes ect in the foreground .
The FF4 is the brightest manufactured light I own, for its size it is just immense.
I have two home brew lights in bits, in the garage that were both brighter, a 100w home made HID (which is going to be redone as soon as I get a few bits to make it actually usable) the other was a short arc (from a projector I think), the bits I got from a car boot sale. Output was huge but not really portable, with a war surplus reflector and a varley battery to run it, could barely carry it and could not get a lens for it.
For anyone interested in switch modes, I did figure it out, when it turns on in high wait for it to reach full intensity, then if you want turbo press switch to go to low, then press and hold the switch after a couple of seconds it goes into turbo. If switch from turbo to low, you then can go to high if you wish, but not back to turbo. You have to turn it off to reset things then start again. ( cumbersome )
Edit: Sorry, to make things more clear, you can switch between High and Low ad infinitum just keep pressing the mode switch. It’s only if you want to use turbo more than once you have to cycle it off on
I have just edited the post you quoted to make things a bit more clear. Switching between high and low and back again is easy, just if you want to use turbo more than once is a pain.
If one looks at the FF4 as an evolution of the FF3, a 40w HID where the 40w is much more usable where you can actually switch between low and high then it makes more sense. The 60w was always, with the package size an addition for the WOW! effect. If the 60w mode was used indiscriminately the heat issues (and battery, as 75w is a high requirement, I have even heard of one person reporting a 7amp draw) would be very difficult to control and would effect how the high mode could be used.
As it is, it is a very small package, no cooling water as in a dive light, but has a very usable high. I think shine has achieved the near impossible. IMO we will have to wait for the FF5 for a usable 60-75w and that is going to take some very fancy materials and or active cooling if the package size is going to remain the same. Also the price is going to be a lot more I fear.
In my view the FF4 is amazing for the money and the bargain budget HID. Just think how much the PH50 is.
A full review? maybe, it’s not burned in yet and its mid summer here so usage is a bit low. I will post more beamshots when I can get decent ones, and will update the lumens when I can figure what went wrong. But have the feeling when the more tech able usual subjects get their hands on it there will be a plethora of reviews, with run times and statistics.
Got me thinking though, with the embargo of supply to anyone in the USA from elsewhere, and none seemingly been supplied. Wonder what the thinking is now, about the sole supply arrangement. And when everyone in the USA can look forward to getting theirs?
Ah okay, the ad infinitum part did make it clearer, thanks.
I agree that the FF4 packs a lot of punch for its size and price, and I’m on the fence about getting a first gen or a second gen FF4. 5-7A is indeed a lot to ask even from top quality cells. No wonder cells with protection circuits are not advised.
Unlike LEDs, HID’s do have a decrease in life when it’s turned off and on, right?
You would think that the makers of this light would have fixed the short battery carrier issues to where you could in fact use protective batteries without having to clip the spring post way down like you did on the FF3. I would also bet that this FF4 has the same slow warmup issues that the FF3 had.
Really don’t think there will be a 2nd gen version. If you take the FF3 apart from the 30-40 (from memory) pre production ones that shine sold and where the ‘noise’ issues emanated from, which were fixed for the production ones, I can’t remember any actual 2nd gen for it. There might have been slight alterations as in all production runs but nothing major that I heard of.
The FF4 has already altered from shines original intentions, so the production ones are already (loosely speaking and in my view) 2nd gen. What is going to change? The one time turbo? Very much doubt it, as I said they view it as a 40w/24w which is where the usage is aimed, and where it works very well.
The HID no fast switching debate, While it is true that some HIDs should not be quickly cycled as that does shorten the life of the bulb (for example ebay style HIDs and their bulbs going brown early) the good ones like Polarion PH50 as I understand it does not suffer from that problem to any extent. The FF3 I believe uses an overdriven bulb so is less affected by that issue, I have never used my FF3 for morse, but have switched it on and off on occasions and have had no issue with the bulb. The FF4 as I understand it uses a different type of bulb and there is debate over it. But really someone like Patriot or Colonel Sanders would be better placed to comment as my experience with HIDs are fairly limited in comparison.
