Vapcell S4 plus v3

Batteries and Chargers Chargers
182

My understanding is that at low charge rates, the -dV/dt inflection point that is used by NiMH smart chargers to terminate the charge is difficult to detect. I think that is likely why the Eneloop technician recommended 0.5-1C. However, without checking now, I seem to recall seeing test data from HKJ or a similar source showing termination occurring at rates more like 0.25C.

With that said, it would seem that it’s not a big deal to miss the ideal termination point if you’re charging slow enough and have another termination method. That 2000 cycle rating for Eneloops wasn’t derived from testing with -dV/dt terminations. The test standard (IEC 61951-2) requires cells be not only be dumb charged, but overcharged, and not particularly slowly. On the plus side, it never overdischarges them, which would result in a lot fewer cycles.

The test is a series of 50 cycle groups. The first is a slow full charge. Then there are 48 cycles of discharging by 58% of rated capacity at 0.25C, and then charging at 0.25C by 79% for rated capacity. The result is every charge cycle overcharges the cell by 21%.

Then each 50th cycle is a capacity test where the battery is charged at 0.1C for 16 hours, before being discharged to 1.0V.

So that 2000 cycle rating is derived from constantly overcharging by 21% to 60%. Although apparently recently the test standard was updated to allow -dV/dt termination in the test.

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183

Eneloops AAA at 500mA all during their life so far and never get hot.
If you all are that worried about not terminating, why not use a timer?

The last 5-10% of capacity pretty much goes away very quickly on anything that draws decent amperage anyway so do not see the value/love of full final charge.
Your voltage may vary :slight_smile:

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184

Thank you very much for your feedback,
May I ask which chargers have achieved a charging current of less than 100mA for NI-MH batteries?
Then the current is too low and the charging time is too long.

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185

There’s dedicated NiMH chargers that allow 100 mA charge currents (from Gyrfalcon/Ennova, Sanyo, Panasonic MaHa Energy) but they’re not as advanced as the S4+and only do 1.5 volt batteries. I think the 250 mA current is okay for general use, but I’d prefer a 100-150 mA current with a proper delta-v to get the most capacity out of them. AA NiMH are okay to charge at up to 450-500 mA, but I still charge them at 250 mA.

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187

In the initial review by HJK of the first-generation Vapcell S4+, he noted that the charger’s displayed internal resistance (IR) was consistently 50% higher than the actual value measured using his reference instruments.

Upon revisiting his review yesterday, I saw that he had added a statement indicating the IR calculation method in the S4+ was wrong.

I would like to confirm whether this calculation has been corrected in later versions, specifically the S4+ V3.

188

This is quite interesting. I have always followed the 0.5C rule with good results. Of courser the chargers I use have a topping off part of the cycle which I always use that is in that 150to 100 mA range. Usually for a couple of hours. The problem I have seen with using the low current that you mention is in getting reliable termination. The only way I have used 100 to 150 mAh range of charging is with purely timed (dumb) charging. In tests that are out there the difference in the total capacity when doing this is only a couple of percent. Personally I prefer to save the time and get a reliable termination.

As to missing termination, if there is a secondary method of termination such as a timer or thermal cutoff it may not be terrible for the cells (@iamlucky13 IEC 61951-2) , my experience is that they do get very hot. I can’t se how this would be good for them long term.

BTW:

Is what the Maha C9000 uses for what they call a “Break-in” cycle. I use this periodically on older cells that have spent a bunch of time in storage. It does seem to be beneficial for them (they measure with higher capacity after using it). But consider that the 0.1C for most AA cells is higher than the 100 to 150mAh that @Sirstinky mentions. FWIW

189

I haven’t looked into the “break-in”, “conditioning”, or “refresh” effect as I’ve seen various charger manufacturers label it to be able to give a detailed answer regarding what is ideal, but it sounds like this would work.

There is a known effect with nickel based batteries resulting in a usually reversible reduction in usable capacity when not periodically fully discharged. In NiCad cells, this is described as “memory.” NiMH cells are considered not to experience this memory effect, but both the Eneloop and Energizer handbooks mention a small voltage depression can occur in batteries that are routinely not discharged fully, resulting in a minor effect on usable capacity. The technicians interviewed on Eneloop101 considered this effect typically negligible.

For the purposes of the IEC test, I think there are likely multiple reasons for this over-charge:

  • Ensure any memory effect on the discharged voltage is minimized during the capacity test performed every 50 cycles
  • Ensure the battery is definitely fully charged at the start of the capacity test
  • Replicate the effect dumb chargers may have on the cells.

From the Eneloop handbook:

190

Yes. the capacity gain when I checked were not huge. Generally on the order of 10 to15% or less. Some of that, of course, could be just due to variability in the testing. I typically use a higher discharge rate when capacity testing.

MAHA recommends running the Break-In on new cells and every 30 cycles. It is indeed based on the IEC test as it charges at 0.1C for 16 hours and then discharges at the same rate. It includes a 30 minute pause between the charge and discharge phases.

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191

Hi Everyone,

I’m new here so I hope no one gets upset that I chose to post my question here instead of starting a New Thread.

First & foremost, I want to say, thank you to all the members that take the time to test out their purchases and then kindly submit them into the Threads, such as this, to help out totally complete novices such as myself, as it’s so greatly appreciated.

I, as I guess many novices, buy AA, AAA, C & D Batteries for our everyday electronics, gadgets and etc. that require them and after constantly having to buy more & more & more, as they eventually die, we look into the rechargeable ones.

This is exactly my scenario and why I only purchased NiMH Batteries with the Consumer Name Brands chargers with the attached Hide-Away AC plug to charge them yet after having many of them get the infamous Red blinking indicator when trying to recharge them and Yes, Stupidly just disposing them and re-buying them, through this Great venue I have now learned, I definitely need a Smart charger even though I’m unfortunately, “Not That Smart.”

You have now gratefully helped me so much understand the basic concept of rechargeable batteries and I’m a Firm believer in Future proofing electronics if I can so I decided, even though it’s definitely Overkill for me and my basic needs, I going to purchase the Vapcell S4 Plus v3 unless you all feel otherwise.

I don’t want to buy it from Amazon, as I stopped a long time ago doing such, with the very Disgraceful used items being sent, and I would really like to buy it straight from the manufacturer, as I always do, yet I don’t need to tell you where that is.

I’m in the US, so where do you graciously recommend I purchase it from, where I hopefully will get a Brand New one and not a Used return one, with hopefully some recourse if it has any issues as well?

I sincerely apologize for the lengthy post, as I always want to give as much information as I can, especially when asking for some gracious & very grateful help & guidance.

Thanking you all kindly and in advance

192

Welcome to the Mighty BLF!
Sit a spell and enjoy the place.
Now back to your question;

This dealer here is a friend to the BLF and is well trusted and a flashlight junkie just like us.
Guaranteed his stuff is legit and ships fast from PA. Get your batteries here to, always fresh and packed well. Tell him BLF sent you.

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193

Muto,

Thank you kindly, as I definitely will and try and learn as much as I possibly can, as most of it right now is definitely way past what I can comprehend.

Thank you so much for the grateful response and recommendation, as I just placed the order and I hope you don’t mind, yet I also let them know that it was you from BLF that referred me to them.

If I may, what do you recommend I keep the charger on to charge up my NiMH Batteries when I receive it and do I leave it plugged in when not in use or unplug it?

Thanks,
S_DeP

194

Generally I believe the consensus is .5 C, in other words Half of rated capacity.
So if a AA Eneloop is rated for 2000 Mah you would be safe at 1000 Mah /1 amp
700Mah = 350Mah, etc.

I never try to be too aggressive with batteries that may be long in the tooth. If the battery is getting really hot to the touch, or if it charges up to termination really quick without taking much capacity it may be toast.
Some members have had luck running “Repair Cycles” with NiMH batteries. Takes a fair bit of time to process and I myself do not really have experience with this as I am swimming in good health batteries so have not had the need.
Sure some other members here can chime in and help you with that if needed.
Also should note my primary charger is an older Opus BT-C3100 so I know it best but many have had good results with the Vapecell you chose and eventually I will get one of those when the need arises.
Anyway let us know how this charger works for you once you have gotten it and run some batteries through it.
Cheers,

Keith

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195

Great, as I guess I was under the wrong impression that the Vapcell S4 Plus v3 was in fact your main charger, yet what you graciously said now makes perfect sense to me and it’s the exact & main reason why I started researching, hearing and now trying to learn what I need to know about Smart chargers.

What I did learn now and unfortunately the Hard way was, the so-called good Energizer Pro AA & AAA wall charger, which is basically the batteries I use and which unbelievably gets Stellar reviews on a basic search, was actually over-charging the NiMH batteries (Their Batteries) thus causing me to Stupidly dispose of them and buy new ones, which I know makes Energizer very Happy.

Now after learning & using a multi-meter, I come to unbelievably learn, most of my batteries are in fact over-charged thus the reason for the infamous No Good battery Red indicator, when I try to charge them, and me Stupidly believing that they were or are bad.

Thanks a Bunch,
Sal

196

The Opus has a fan that drives some people nuts and it can be a little harder to get the hang of what works and how, so it is probably best you have ordered the Vapecell S4.
It came out after the Opus and provides more power and is more up to date in general.
There is a reason they sell so many :slight_smile:

Best Ni-Mh batteries are genuine Panasonic Eneloop. Costco used to have well priced combo AAA, AA packs around Christmas, but you can get them at various dealers a well.

Please understand Pretty much all chargers will terminate higher on Ni-Mh but the resting voltage will come back quickly and be fine.
Ni-Mh does not feedback to chargers the same way a Li ion.
HTH

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197

Okay, I’m glad I made the right decision and I’m truly grateful for individuals such as you as well.

This is definitely great to know, as many customers on Amazon didn’t give the Panasonic Eneloop’s good reviews, yet I really don’t trust anything bought from Amazon after sadly & disgracefully getting used items sent.

Okay, now I definitely understand, yet I still believe I unfortunately threw away some good batteries by not checking them with a multi-meter or putting them in the device to see if it would work, which I’m thankfully doing now thanks to this great venue.

Regards,
Sal

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198

Hi Everyone or Someone,

The Vapcell S4 plus v3 is expected to be delivered today and I would greatly appreciate someone, who owns the unit, to kindly let me know, by hopefully reading my initial comment and my uses & needs, do I use the unit on the Auto or Manual mode?

Thank you kindly,
S_DeP

199

I prefer manual mode as I know better than software.

For NiMh I set the current to 0.5 or 1C if I’m in a hurry, for a 2000mah AA cell this is 1A regular speed or 2A if I want it done quickly but I monitor the temperature to make sure I’m not cooking the cell.

Long term, don’t store cells in the charger (they’ll drain if it’s unplugged) and don’t leave it plugged in, no other reason than it’s a waste of electricity and it’s good practice to unplug to minimise risk of electrical fires, just like any other product.

It would probably also work fine in “auto” mode if you wanted to try it out- just keep an eye on it to see that it’s not trying to charge smaller cells with high current (perhaps higher than 1.5C, as a rough example).

If you’ve got mixed collection of cells but need sets of 2/3/4 to go in devices, I recommend you run cap tests to maximise the performance- each set will be limited by the weakest cell.

To do this, separate them by manufacturer/type and age if possible, label them with marker and do a capacity test with the maximum discharge current (iirc 350ma - this takes a long time), record the capacity and internal resistance values and group the most similar cells to be used as a set.

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200

Thanks so much for this gracious, grateful and detailed explanation & lesson, as it’s greatly appreciated.

Like I said in my original post, I bought the Vapcell S4 plus v3 charger not because I know what I’m doing, which I definitely don’t, yet because I wanted something of quality & future-proofing as I learn and because, the basic ones I have or had only show red, amber & green indicators and I don’t believe they charge the batteries to their full potential as well as they just give-up-the-ghost very quickly.

This in turn forces me to have to constantly recharge them, which I can only assume isn’t recommended or good for the cells so I decided to purchase the Vapcell charger so I can finally see what I need to learn & know and unfortunately never was able to.

My basic use of the rechargeable NiMH batteries presently is only AA & AAA’s for an external laptop mouse, remotes, travel shaver and grooming trimmer and nothing more, yet I now thankfully know that if I need better and more advanced batteries/cells, the Vapcell S4 plus v3 charger will hopefully have me greatly covered.

Thanks again for your time and grateful advice,
S_DeP

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201

Oh forgot to mention, do not use the USB A power bank function.

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202

Okay, thank you kindly for gratefully letting me know this as it’s greatly appreciated.

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