DBSAR Lantern Mini-Review: -Zanflare T1 (UPDATE: Second T1 failed!

182 posts / 0 new
Last post
tatasal
Online
Last seen: 14 min 3 sec ago
Joined: 02/15/2012 - 08:40
Posts: 5653
Location: Far East
JasonWW wrote:
It looks like Wimpy Water got removed from the forum (I wonder what he did). I wish he was here so he could apologize for accusing me of sweeping these temperature related issues under the carpet. He was way paranoid. Facepalm

The Wimp got wimped.

Zulumoose
Zulumoose's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/13/2017 - 09:25
Posts: 859
Location: South Africa
Quote:
It looks like Wimpy Water got removed from the forum (I wonder what he did)

I don’t know what specific rule he broke, but it was obvious that he was more interested in trolling than content. He deliberately threw around insults and slipped provocative comments into his posts on a regular basis.

Beam me up!

JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas

HKJ wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
Cells are charged per 4.1.1 and heated in a circulating air oven at a rate of 5ºC per minute to 130ºC. At 130ºC, oven is to remain for 10 minutes before test is discontinued (Per UL1642).
Specification: No explode, No fire

In this test venting is allowed, i.e. the cell is not usable after this.
The 60°C rating is not really maximum there is some safety included. This can be seen from some cells where the specifications allows up to maybe 80°C when using thermal cut-off.

Ah, so venting is allowed. That makes sense. 130°C is pretty rediculous.

Yeah, 60°C is normal. They even store the cells at 60°C for a month to make sure they hold their charge.

What is interesting is the Sanyo/Panasonic data says the “polyolefin separator may get damaged” above 80°C. I wonder if this kind of separator is common among all the other brands of batteries as well. This might be considered the true temperature limit before venting. What do you think?

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

HKJ
HKJ's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 16 hours ago
Joined: 05/24/2011 - 12:23
Posts: 7432
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
JasonWW wrote:
Ah, so venting is allowed.

The “No fire, No explosion” means venting is allowed. A venting is a undramatically event to prevent explosion. But it can be dramatically if there is anything that can ignite the venting gas (Like sparks).

JasonWW wrote:
This might be considered the true temperature limit before venting. What do you think?

This is surface temperature, the inside will be warmer.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas
HKJ wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
This might be considered the true temperature limit before venting. What do you think?

This is surface temperature, the inside will be warmer.


I guess it depends where the heat is coming from. If the heat is from an external source like battery tube or heater then I don’t think the interior will be warmer.

If the heat is from high discharge, then the inside will be warmer.

I’m glad your on this thrwad. I guess someone pointed you in this direction? Edit: Oh yes, post #39. I forgot.

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

HKJ
HKJ's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 16 hours ago
Joined: 05/24/2011 - 12:23
Posts: 7432
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

JasonWW wrote:

This is surface temperature, the inside will be warmer.

I guess it depends where the heat is coming from. If the heat is from an external source like battery tube or heater then I don’t think the interior will be warmer.[/quote]

If the battery powers it, the battery will get hot and this means the battery will be warmer.
The reason I use relative temperature in my battery test is because the temperature is above ambient and if the battery is inside a hot tube, the tube temperature is ambient.

JasonWW wrote:
I’m glad your on this thrwad. I guess someone pointed you in this direction?

Yes.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas

I think my general conclusion is the Zanflare T1 is not a defective or dangerous device. It seems to keep the batteries within a safe operating range.

No device is 100% safe. If you use a Li-ion battery that is abused by being over discharged, over charged, dropped, etc… then it will be more susceptible to over heating and venting.

Most devices may still be able to use these abused cells because the devices heat range is limited. In the T1, the heat range is higher than most devices, so that makes it more likely to push a bad battery to its thermal limits and cause it to vent. It doesn’t mean the device is bad, it means the battery was bad.

So I guess the moral of the story is to heed all Li-ion battery precautions. If you’ve got a battery that gets really hot while being recharged at a nice safe rate or doesn’t seem to terminate charging, that battery may be damaged inside. Get rid of it in a safe manner.

Be cautious of laptop pulls or old batteries. Test them out thoroughly before using them in your devices. If it acts funny, can’t hold a charge or runs hot for unknown reasons, it’s better to get rid of it than risk it venting on you.

I had a brand new 16340 battery act funny on me a while back. It would not terminate a slow charge and it got really hot in the process. I had the manufacturer send me a replacement. Better safe than sorry.

This is my opinion on the matter. What do you guys think? Have you drawn any conclusions yet or do we need to do more testing?

I’m curious if the battery temps will exceed 60°C in a 35°C ambient environment.

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

I pretty much agree with you Jason. I feel like it is safe enough to use given the results you & others have posted, as well as what I have experienced using mine.

No problems to date….. Thumbs Up . Wink

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

tatasal
Online
Last seen: 14 min 3 sec ago
Joined: 02/15/2012 - 08:40
Posts: 5653
Location: Far East

teacher wrote:
I pretty much agree with you Jason. I feel like it is safe enough to use given the results you & others have posted, as well as what I have experienced using mine.

No problems to date….. Thumbs Up . Wink

The T1 is definitely safe to use even in the brightest mode till the cell goes down in voltage, goes a notch down as the cell depletes with lower brightness until the LVP kicks in.

Tried it again today for confirmation.

Edit: I once experienced my Klarus Mi7Ti with a 14500 accidentally turn-on inside a holster (from my Eagletac D25A) and went into turbo until the holster was melting and nearly burned it. I never held a light as hot as it was, it was scalding hot.

Yet the light and the cell are still alive up to today.

gadabout
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 22 hours ago
Joined: 08/17/2012 - 23:11
Posts: 888
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Thanks to all for contributing data points to this thread.

I’m not yet prepared to rule this as “safe under all conditions” but I don’t plan to try to heat my house to 35+ C just for testing purposes. I’ll sure be keeping an eye on this as we move into summer down here.

If the cell can reach the mid 50s in a 25 deg ambient, then I think there is some cause for concern when you start adding another 10-15 on top of that. (Yes, I’ve experienced temps of 35-40C indoors on a summer night.)

RobertB
RobertB's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 24 min ago
Joined: 12/18/2015 - 17:49
Posts: 3718
Location: USA, Michigan

gadabout wrote:
Thanks to all for contributing data points to this thread.

I’m not yet prepared to rule this as “safe under all conditions” but I don’t plan to try to heat my house to 35+ C just for testing purposes. I’ll sure be keeping an eye on this as we move into summer down here.

If the cell can reach the mid 50s in a 25 deg ambient, then I think there is some cause for concern when you start adding another 10-15 on top of that. (Yes, I’ve experienced temps of 35-40C indoors on a summer night.)

Lithium ion won’t go into thermal runaway until the 115C (240ºF) range. You’re plenty safe. The temps everyone is posting is with the lantern on full brightness anyway.

JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas

Protected cells are still a viable solution. I’m not sure if the o-ring was able to be compressed using my 69mm cell. You don’t need to fully compress it unless your outside where it might get wet. I think a thicker o-ring would get compressed. Or you could double up the o-rings.

HKJ, have you ever tested the thermal limits of a protected cell to see if it kicks in at a certain temperature?

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas

RobertB wrote:

Lithium ion won’t go into thermal runaway until the 115C (240ºF) range. You’re plenty safe. The temps everyone is posting is with the lantern on full brightness anyway.


The point of this thread was that DBSAR had a battery vent in his lantern at 65°C or maybe lower. We are not sure the actual temperature. I think we all suspect that his battery, even though it seemed to work fine, was damaged internally. Maybe it was due to it’s age, or maybe it had been over discharged at some point. We don’t really know. We don’t even know why his latern got that hot to begin with.

Maybe the lantern only got up to 55°C and then the battery got so hot internally that it heated the lantern up instead of the other way around.

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

tatasal
Online
Last seen: 14 min 3 sec ago
Joined: 02/15/2012 - 08:40
Posts: 5653
Location: Far East

gadabout wrote:

If the cell can reach the mid 50s in a 25 deg ambient, then I think there is some cause for concern when you start adding another 10-15 on top of that. (Yes, I’ve experienced temps of 35-40C indoors on a summer night.)

My country also routinely goes up to 35-40c (even 44c in some provinces during the summer months) and I don’t think the ambient temp is linear in adding to the cell in this case, but perhaps by a few degrees…can somebody more knowledgeable correct me on this?

I haven’t noticed any substantial difference even in my modded, much hotter lights in Turbo at 26c and 35c.

HKJ
HKJ's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 16 hours ago
Joined: 05/24/2011 - 12:23
Posts: 7432
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
JasonWW wrote:
HKJ, have you ever tested the thermal limits of a protected cell to see if it kicks in at a certain temperature?

The chips I have seen datasheets on do not include any over temperature protection.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas
HKJ wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
HKJ, have you ever tested the thermal limits of a protected cell to see if it kicks in at a certain temperature?

The chips I have seen datasheets on do not include any over temperature protection.


That’s odd, I see this data a lot in battery ads. I don’t have too many protected cells. I’ve got a Panny B 3400 from KeepPower, but I notice it doesn’t mention temperature protection, just over charge, over discharge, over current, and short-circuit.

My others are Panny GA 3500 from Evva.
It says:
Built-in Seiko IC and Three MOSFETs to protect battery from over charge, over discharge, short circuit, over temperature and low temperature.

I’ve looked at a lot of the protection circuit details on many batteries in the last couple years and it seems like most do mention over temperature protection. Obviously that’s not a standard feature across all protection circuits. I thought it was. Well, that’s a bummer.

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

HKJ
HKJ's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 16 hours ago
Joined: 05/24/2011 - 12:23
Posts: 7432
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
JasonWW wrote:
I’ve looked at a lot of the protection circuit details on many batteries in the last couple years and it seems like most do mention over temperature protection. Obviously that’s not a standard feature across all protection circuits. I thought it was. Well, that’s a bummer.

They may mean the PTC protection, not the chip.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas
HKJ wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
I’ve looked at a lot of the protection circuit details on many batteries in the last couple years and it seems like most do mention over temperature protection. Obviously that’s not a standard feature across all protection circuits. I thought it was. Well, that’s a bummer.

They may mean the PTC protection, not the chip.


What is PTC protection?

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

Aleister
Aleister's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: 10/23/2010 - 15:27
Posts: 726
Location: Greece

I think they ought to change that design.

It can potentially be dangerous as the battery temperature can be quite close the limits and a not perfect battery or a little bit more outside temperature can cross them.

Also, for our purposes, venting equals explosion as there are no safety vent-holes to T1 – or any other flashlight that I know of – to relieve the pressure (as there are on many ecigs exactly for this reason).

Let a flooder be my wife and a thrower be my mistress

HKJ
HKJ's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 16 hours ago
Joined: 05/24/2011 - 12:23
Posts: 7432
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

JasonWW wrote:

They may mean the PTC protection, not the chip.

What is PTC protection?[/quote]

That is a ring inside the battery that will change to high resistance if it gets too hot, this will basically disconnect the battery. It is not used in all batteries.

You can see it in this tear-down: https://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryDisassemblyUltraFire%20UK.html

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas

Aleister wrote:

Also, for our purposes, venting equals explosion as there are no safety vent-holes to T1 – or any other flashlight that I know of – to relieve the pressure (as there are on many ecigs exactly for this reason).

This is not true. The T1 battery tube is not sealed. If pressure were to build up, it would go through the positive end of the battery tube, through the pcb and into the white plastic housing. Then the white plastic would break relieving the pressure. So it would not be any kind of pipe bomb if that’s what your thinking.

On flashlights I have seen some pictures where it vents through the driver board and then through the switch hole.

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

kuoh
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 03/10/2013 - 12:42
Posts: 565
But that wouldn’t address low temperatures and PTC tripping would kill the cell. Sounds like the typical marketing department over hype on nonexistent or features they don’t understand.

KuoH

HKJ wrote:

They may mean the PTC protection, not the chip.

kuoh
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 03/10/2013 - 12:42
Posts: 565
Is the tube even that thick or is it just a thin piece of sheet metal rolled into a tube with a crimped side? I wouldn’t think they’d waste that much material and add weight by using a thick walled tube like a flashlight.

KuoH

JasonWW wrote:
This is not true. The T1 battery tube is not sealed. If pressure were to build up, it would go through the positive end of the battery tube, through the pcb and into the white plastic housing. Then the white plastic would break relieving the pressure. So it would not be any kind of pipe bomb if that’s what your thinking.
JasonWW
JasonWW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 21 min ago
Joined: 10/22/2016 - 11:41
Posts: 12871
Location: Houston Texas

I think the wall thickness of the battery tube is quite thick. Maybe at least 5mm thick. You can tell because there’s a threaded screw hole at the top.

DBSAR, do you have any more pictures of the lights internals or of the plastic part that’s removed?

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

RobertB
RobertB's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 24 min ago
Joined: 12/18/2015 - 17:49
Posts: 3718
Location: USA, Michigan

JasonWW wrote:
RobertB wrote:

Lithium ion won’t go into thermal runaway until the 115C (240ºF) range. You’re plenty safe. The temps everyone is posting is with the lantern on full brightness anyway.


The point of this thread was that DBSAR had a battery vent in his lantern at 65°C or maybe lower. We are not sure the actual temperature. I think we all suspect that his battery, even though it seemed to work fine, was damaged internally. Maybe it was due to it’s age, or maybe it had been over discharged at some point. We don’t really know. We don’t even know why his latern got that hot to begin with.

Maybe the lantern only got up to 55°C and then the battery got so hot internally that it heated the lantern up instead of the other way around.

Must have been a bad battery. I heated a Samsung 25r up in a Emisar D4, installing it backwards testing for reverse polarity protection. It heated up to measure 215ºF on the outside of the battery tube. No telling what the actual temp of the 25r was. By the time I got it apart, the battery was still at 180ºF with no venting. PTC, that HKJ mentioned, may have prevented it from thermal runaway and exploding though.

deleted-200707
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
Joined: 12/16/2015 - 13:27
Posts: 1640
Location: mod-X
JasonWW wrote:
It looks like Wimpy Water got removed from the forum (I wonder what he did). I wish he was here so he could apologize for accusing me of sweeping these temperature related issues under the carpet. He was way paranoid. Facepalm

I think he Vented! Shocked

Aleister
Aleister's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: 10/23/2010 - 15:27
Posts: 726
Location: Greece

JasonWW wrote:
Aleister wrote:

Also, for our purposes, venting equals explosion as there are no safety vent-holes to T1 – or any other flashlight that I know of – to relieve the pressure (as there are on many ecigs exactly for this reason).

This is not true. The T1 battery tube is not sealed. If pressure were to build up, it would go through the positive end of the battery tube, through the pcb and into the white plastic housing. Then the white plastic would break relieving the pressure. So it would not be any kind of pipe bomb if that’s what your thinking.

On flashlights I have seen some pictures where it vents through the driver board and then through the switch hole.


Whatever breaks after a vent (tube, plastic housing) will break in a way we can’t predict if we don’t test it. Even a flying piece of plastic can be as good as a knife if it hits right, and that is if you are right about the tube having an easy way out for the gases. If a battery vents, it will increase the pressure inside a closed cylinder. So, no, no vent holes = possible pipe bomb.

Also, flashlights do explode from time to time (mobile phones and laptops too), it’s a risk we all take and we can’t be sure that they will vent through the driver board or switch hole or use any other “easy way out”. They are not designed to fail, they have all kinds of protections, and still, they sometimes do. Seems like the T1 works close to the battery fail limits without any thermal protection and I would prefer it not to.

That’s just my opinion and, of course, I could be wrong.

Let a flooder be my wife and a thrower be my mistress

Pete7874
Pete7874's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 38 min ago
Joined: 11/23/2011 - 16:47
Posts: 3465
Location: USA
chinooker wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
It looks like Wimpy Water got removed from the forum (I wonder what he did). I wish he was here so he could apologize for accusing me of sweeping these temperature related issues under the carpet. He was way paranoid. Facepalm

I think he Vented! Shocked


He certainly did, LOL!
teacher
teacher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: 02/23/2016 - 19:04
Posts: 9596
Location: NE & SW Alabama

Pete7874 wrote:
chinooker wrote:
JasonWW wrote:
It looks like Wimpy Water got removed from the forum (I wonder what he did). I wish he was here so he could apologize for accusing me of sweeping these temperature related issues under the carpet. He was way paranoid. Facepalm
I think he Vented! Shocked
He certainly did, LOL!
“With flames” it appears. Wink

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

 .................................. "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" ...................................

       Texas Lumens Flashlights / M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$  

         Rudeness Level _ mΩ _ {width:70%} _ LightWiki _ LED Tint Chart  

      Xlamp size chart _ BatteryU _ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???            TheOriginal _ TAB _ LightSearch _ BatterySearch _ 14500's _ DiCal 

 

                                             

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 8 hours ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 6375
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
freeme wrote:

I am in contact with GearBest for this issue now. I personally would like propose for Version 2, but i heard the product life cycle is rather on its early stage.


JasonWW wrote:
.. DBSAR, have you contacted Gearbest or Zanflare and asked them about their temperature tests?

Gearbest contacted me, but never heard back yet from my reply.

right now for the sample i have I am keeping it limited to roughly 80% from maximum to keep the cell temps down.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

Pages