Comparing TS10 to D3AA Voltage and Output change Overnight

LED Flashlights – General Info
1

I started with two freshly charged Wurkkos 14500 batteries.
Both lights set to as close to 15 lumens as possible.
The lights were On for 13.5 hours.
Voltage readings are from my inexpensive DMM.

Conclusion:
The the TS10 battery voltage dropped to 2.90V, the D3AA dropped to 3.55V

The TS10 dropped to 0.09 lumens, the D3AA sustained the 15 lumen output

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Can someone tell me if my lumen estimates (green box) are in the ballpark?.. iow, does the 0.8 lumen level have 34.3% efficiency?

e

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I switched the batteries for this next test, at 5 lumens.

TS10 stepped down to sublumen after 34.5 hours, the battery reached 2.90V and triggered LVP.

The D3AA battery is at 3.54V… and holding near 5 lumens still

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I then ran the D3AA for 3 more hours, still at 5 lumens, for a total of 37 hours, when it suddenly stepped down to less than 0.01 lumens, with the battery at 2.99V

a note of caution
When the TS10 and D3AA step down from long runtimes at 5 lumens, it happens suddenly. Essentially giving the operator no warning that the battery is getting low.

Unless the operator is diligent and uses one of the three ways of checking battery voltage on Anduril lights…

  1. 3C from off, then count the blinks
  2. Post Off Voltage Display Aux Colors
  3. Pre On Voltage Display Aux Colors

There is no gradual dimming, no series of steps down, nor any blinking output that will warn the operator before the light goes dark, and leaves you stranded.

So… monitor your battery level… When it gets below 3.5V, the remaining runtime at 5 lumens is about 2 hours…

here is an output and runtime chart thanks to data from 1lumen

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Conclusions:

The TS10 has regulated output from the Linear 7135 chip, when running below FET (below 100 lumens).

But the TS10 uses PWM, the D3AA Boost driver has a much lower Flicker Index (data I really appreciate from the Opple).

flicker
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fwiw, a Flicker Index of 0.0500 or less is considered to have No Negative Biological effects. (Flicker sensitive office workers dont get Migraines)

And the D3AA Boost driver is more efficient than the TS10 when running on the 7135

The D3AA becomes less efficient at low levels, I tried to determine at what output the D3AA becomes as InEfficiet as the TS10. My conclusion is that Below 10 lumens the TS10 has almost the same runtime as the D3AA

18 Thanks
2

Amazing comparison. Thank you very much for your testing!

1 Thank
3

Thx for testing and share. Is the TS10 also using the same LED / CCT?

4

yes,

both lights have DD 4500K 519a

(TS10 519a mod by Zwerglein02)

3 Thanks
5

AMAZING job, Jon! Thank you!

Wow! This would mean the TS10 ate almost the whole battery, while the D3AA still had ~28% left!
(interpolating from the table @HKJ posted here)

This is IMO a huge advantage for the D3AA! Goes to show how important/useful an efficient driver is (and I hope @Wurkkos and @Wurkkos_Terry are reading this!)

TS10 stepped down to sublumen after 34.5 hours, the battery reached 2.90V and triggered LVP.
The D3AA battery is at 3.54V… and holding near 5 lumens still

Again, the D3AA is simply amazing here. On an emergency situation where one needs continuous light and doesn’t have many batteries nor the possibility of recharging them, this could be literally the difference between life and death.

When the TS10 and D3AA step down from long runtimes at 5 lumens, it happens suddenly. Essentially giving the operator no warning that the battery is getting low.

This is really bad, and while that behavior doesn’t surprise me with the D3AA (with a regulated driver, that’s not a bug but a feature),
I expected differently from the TS10, ie a constant dimming all the way, following the battery voltage. This for me removes the only advantage of an unregulated driver… :expressionless:

AFAICS, all of these would require the operator to periodically turn off the light for the checking, which would hinder operations.

I wonder whether we could/should implement a 4th method: the light, when turned on, would constantly monitor the battery voltage and then start blinking the Aux LEDS (in case they are viisible, eg as in the switch in the D3AA) or the main LED (for the TS10, where they’re in the optics along the main LEDs and therefore would not be visible) when the voltage reaches some predefined value (eg, 3.35V as it would mean 10% remaining charge, interpolating from the same table I mentioned above). Of course, in case of the main LEDs, the blink would need to be sporadic (like once every 20 seconds) in order not to hinder the light’s usage too much. What do you think, is that a good idea?

6

Honestly, if you’re that concerned about battery voltage in an emergency I don’t think a D3AA or TS10 is the right tool for the job. Olight and Nitecore both make lights that have LED battery level indicators in or near the switch, they also tend to be IPX8 rated. The low CRI cool white emitters are more efficient so the battery will last longer, especially as you can get by with using lower levels because cool white tends to be brighter.

7

Thanks a lot for the testing and info. Hopefully this helps dispel the myth I’ve been seeing here and there that the TS10 7135 regulation is somehow better than buck or boost drivers at low levels, such as under 100 lumens. Obviously, there is some semblance of truth in it, as you say here that the TS10 almost has the same runtime as a D3AA under 10 lumens, but in no situation is it better than the boost regulation of thefreeman’s driver. But yep, that myth of the TS10 being slightly better than actual buck/boost driven lights under 100 lumens always sounded like ‘cope’ to me.

8

Any specific models you have in mind?

that have LED battery level indicators in or near the switch

I’m not sure I follow you here – the D3AA (as any light with RGB Aux lights in the switch) can be configured to show the voltage all the time, including while the light is on. The problem is that these LEDs, if lighted constantly, would eat battery too – therefore my idea to modify Anduril in such a way as to turn them on only when the battery starts to get really low, and even then only in a blinking manner (so as to both call the operator’s attention, and to save battery).

About IPX8, I’m not sure about the D3AA but the TS10 at least also follows that spec (I even tested mine by submerging it in a river for quite a few minutes and it passed with flying colors).

1 Thank
9

The Olight Warrior 3S and Mini 3 both have battery indicators off the top of my head, I think the Seeker and Batons do too. The Warrior Mini 3 I have, it’s very compact for an 18650 light. I know the Nitecore MH12 Pro has four LEDs next to the switch and I think other MH-series lights may also have these. TBH once I got the WM3 I stopped looking.

My D3AA has a black switch cover, but I believe that with Hank’s lights the RGB LEDs in the switch are only on when the main emitters are off because they’re linked to the aux lights. The single colour lit switches are on whether the main emitters are or not but of course they don’t display voltage.

It’s good to know that the TS10 is waterproof, anecdotally Hanks seem to be but I personally wouldn’t intentionally submerse one. That said, I would avoid immersing any light unless it was rated for diving, so that may just be me.

10

With the RGB switch one can configure it to show the voltage colour while the light is on. At higher outputs the voltage will sag and show too low value (colour), but at low output the value (colour) should be somewhat accurate and useful.

Though one negative aspect with the RGB switch is, at least on the Anduril 2 versions my D1K and K1 came with: the switch AUX will be on high when the light is switched on, meaning at low outputs the switch will shine very brightly - actually bright enough to shine through my thumb, which is way too much when using the light in dark environment, IMO.

1 Thank
11

I’m not sure how 519s are rated, but even though they’re “the same” emitter, what about different flux bins?

We could be comparing a Geo Metro vs a Canyonero, with both doing 5mph. Gas usage for both will be different.

Similarly, the test doesn’t specify the actual currents being drawn to produce the 5lm, 15lm, etc. Ie, we’re testing the system as a whole (emitter, optics, driver, cell, etc.) vs just the driver.

Hanklights might be using more efficient 519s vs the TS10s? No idea if the optics are “the same”, efficiency-wise, either.

Also, 2 independent runs using the same cell and swapping, or 2 different cells with the tests run concurrently? “Criss-cross” the cells between lights and repeat?


Now you know why I hate hate hate “testing” things, because you gotta eliminate all other variables to test one component of a system…

12

How do you make the rgb switch stay on when the light is on?

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by my math from 3.54V there was just 8% of total runtime remaining. (3 hours out of 37 hours)

my understanding is that TS10 driver has Regulated output when running on the Linear 7135 chip (below 100 lumens).

I do agree that regulated drivers dont give a warning before the output drops to sublumen

A low battery warning, that blinks the main LEDs when the light is ON, could be a good feature. Not sure what Voltage should be the trigger point.

atm Anduril implements a severe step down at 2.99V… the light will still be ON at sublumen levels… whether that is sufficient to get to safety, depends on the imaginary emergency scenario.

not better, just Regulated output instead of declining output

correct… any low voltage indicator while main LEDs are ON, would have to come from the main LEDs, not the Aux

true, in the latest Anduril, if the output is above 10 lumens, Single Color switch Aux will use High Brightness (an RGB switch will be Off)… it used to be that the Single Color switch would become high brightness when output went above 100 lumens… I liked that better

I do prefer Single Color switch Aux… not a fan of RGB switch Aux, because they turn OFF when the main LEDs are ON.

14

To my understanding it’s the default behaviour on lights with an RGB switch.

For lights with a RGB button LED, the button LED indicates battery charge during use in the same manner as the aux LED voltage mode.

From ToyKeeper’s official Anduril 2 manual: anduril/docs/anduril-manual.md at trunk · ToyKeeper/anduril · GitHub

15

that is only true for lights with RGB switch and No front Aux. It is not correct for lights with front Aux such as the D3AA and TS10.

here is the next sentence in the manual (thanks for linking it):

For lights with front-facing aux LEDs, the aux LEDs typically stay off when the main emitters are on

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16

I’ve become a fan of the secret menu black switch option, the lit switches just get too bright.

1 Thank
17

if you choose RGB, they turn off when main LEDs are On

18

That is correct; the RGB button will follow the front-facing RGB aux and turn OFF when the main LEDs are ON. At least until you get to the next exception to that rule: the 3ch D4K. Even with front-facing RGB aux, with this one, the RGB button will stay ON when the main LEDs are ON.

19

The only light I have with an RGB switch is the D3AA, the aux lights on that are too bright even on low, so a black switch limits that somewhat. Plus I dislike that the colours don’t blend, so instead of purple you get red and blue. The D3AA that lives by my bed has a black switch and the aux lights on low red.

20

I think the D3AA is a better light but its also 3-4 times the price when the TS10 is on sale for close to $10.

Conclusion: we need to have both.