It’s not quite that simple. Emitters operate at 3V, but Li-ion batteries do not put out 3V; they usually hit LVP and shut off around there.
You really have to think in Watts. The maximum output of the Freeman driver is 2A@9V which is 18W. As you can’t get more watts out than you, you are pulling 18W from the cell. A nearly-full battery will be 4V and 18/4=4.5, so you will be pulling 4.5A. A nearly-dead battery will be 3V, and 18/3=6, so you will be pulling 6A from the cell… or at least you would be if the D3AA was not had-capped at 5.5A. There is a certain voltage where it cannot draw enough amps to get the 18W. As you can see, the amp draw depends on voltage.
And yes, the D3AA’s driver is limited to 5.5A maximum draw as that’s the maximum you can get from Eneloops. But that same 5.5A at one-third the voltage means your maximum wattage is also divided by 3 when running Eneloops, so you can only get 6W out. The emitters will still be getting 9V, but 6 Watts divided by 9 volts ~0.67A or one-third what you’d get with a full 14500 cell.
I think I must be asking the wrong questions.
I’m not sure that answer is anything I was actually after.
I really dont understand very much of it either, and I really hope I dont have to.
I just thought that a “9A driver” was telling me that I’d need to make sure I was using a cell with a CDR capeable of 9A. Which I thought was odd, because isnt that quite high for a 14500 light/cell?
seems your question is: What CDR LiIon battery should I buy for a D3AA?
Because Im not a Turbo user, one of my priorities is capacity instead of max CDR. From that perspective, I like the Vapcel F12 1250mAh, it has a 3A CDR.
People who prioritize Turbo, prefer the Vapcel H10 rated 1050mAh and 10A CDR.
in both cases I advocate for the Flat Top versions, because they also fit my Wurkkos TS10 and my Emisar D2. The button top Vapcel F12 and H10 do not fit those lights, the batteries are too long.
I also use the Wurkkos 14500 that comes w the TS10. It has a capacity of 900mAh and 3A CDR.
Another battery I especially like, because it is USB-C rechargeable, is the Lumintop 14500 rated 920mAh and 4A CDR. Note I do NOT use that battery for Turbo.
Because the Lumintop 14500 is Protected, sometimes the battery protection trips on Turbo and shuts the light off. (thats why Emissar says Protected batteries dont work). Ive also had one Lumintop 14500 battery not recover functionality, after testing Turbo repeatedly. I had to dispose of that cell.
as far as the correct specs, those are in post 1 (but those specs dont tell you what CDR battery to choose):
The CDR rating doesn’t really need to be that high for a D3AA, but there really aren’t many choice for 14500s that are above 3A. In fact, the H10 is the only one that comes to mind, so it wins by process of elimination.
“Ive also had one Lumintop 14500 battery not recover functionality, after testing Turbo repeatedly. I had to dispose of that cell.”
Is that the protection circuit that caused this? or did it get damaged from not being high enough CDR?
I feeel like i keep getting mixed information, or I just keep misinterpretting things…
I’ve been reassured multiple times that having to low a CDR in a light that pulls high amps is not that big of a deal, but now I’m wondering if they’re wrong?
I’m constantly getting information that convinces me that I’m “safe”, and then more information that suggests that I’m not…
Example of that last time I was reassured I was “safe”
Now I’m thinking I will kill my cells trying to put them in flashlights they dont have a high enough CDR for.
I feel like a crazy person. Constantly flip-flopping between - “My flashights are safe.” — “Oh no, theyre dangerous!” — “Oh no, they are perfectly safe!” Im gonna accidently kill my cells" — “Oh, no Im not, I just misinterpreted what I read.” — “Its defnitely possible I’m gonna kill my cells…”
The multiple tripped protection events finally left the protection circuit tripped and it would not reset.
The D3AA draws 3A at level 7 of 7. The Only output on a D3AA that uses more than 3A is Turbo.
imo, Turbo is counter productive. It generates excess heat, so the light has to step down. The excess brightness closes down our pupils so we are less sensitive to lower brightness. The net result is a brief event of excess brightness that is not sustainable, creates excess heat, and leaves us flash blinded so lower outputs are less effective for us. Turbo also drains the battery extra fast ;-(
I am the Anti-Turbo ;-), for me, a better strategy is to just disable Turbo completely. My priority is Sustainable Output, and prolonged battery runtime.
otoh, if Turbo is important to you, the H10 battery w CDR of 10A will achieve a higher maximum output.
I agree with you on turbo use with certain lights, but with others I plan to use turbo a lot. I want multiple D3AA’s in different configurations.
Not having a serious in-depth understainding of how cells and drivers truely work leaves me constantly worried that I might use my lights in ways that possibly damage cells. (From from voltage sag?)
Example - Trying to use turbo on a Cell thats already at half capacity and was just turned off from a long period of use on a high mode where the Cell is already in a state of recovering from voltage sag. Then turbo puts a real strain on the Cell?
And more specifically, with a cell that doesnt even have a high enough CDR for what the turbo mode wants.
I keep being re-assured that I should be fine, so I’m trying to have faith in that and not worry so much about it, but certain use cases are always having me think… Is this where it may actually be harmful to the cell? (like what I just described above for example.)
Anyways, thanks for your time and replies.
I have the main answer I came here for, so I should probably continue any more questining about Cell health and safety in another thread.
You seem to be assuming that Turbo will Draw as much power from a 3A CDR battery, as it would receive from a 10A CDR. I think that is a mistaken assumption, because imo the Turbo does not Pull power, it just receives the most the battery can deliver.
3A CDR doesn’t mean the battery outputs no more than that, it means it’s safe to pull 3A constantly. Battery can output as infinite current as possible (I’m simplifying) and only resistance of the circuit including its own internal resistance stops it.
Vapcell’s H10 has impedance 17 mOhms. Although dc resistance is likely higher, short circuit current still can exceed hundred amps. That current will drop pretty quickly with voltage sag but still will be enormous.
Your 60s test isn’t long enough to see the difference. Also TS10 isn’t a good test stand for batteries as it pulls high current for about 20 seconds and then steps down, so the current remains within battery’s CDR range. And in this test case the flashlight is the main source of heat and not the battery, so in some sense there is indeed no difference between 3A and 10A batteries.
Short of being able to truely ueally understand this stuff myself, im left trying to take others word for things. But I aways get reassurance both ways.
Its safe. Its dangerous. You wont damage anything. You will damage your cells.
I spent the last week over the moon feeling confident that my worries were all misplaced and that I was truely safe to continue foward with all the lights again. I just spent $200 on new lights to re-start my collection again.
Now, before theyve even arrived, im again convinced of theyre dangerous and Im too afraid to even open orbuse them again…
OK. In your boots I would take one of these actions:
With internal resistance meter (if you have one) check IR of “wurkkos” batteries and compare it to some popular batteries on the market. In this way CDR of “wurkkos” batteries can be estimated.
Search reviews of both donor and recepient that show maximum current drain to see if they approximately match.
Turn off internal paranoid if turbo isn’t sustainable for long and therefore cannot heat up the battery a lot.
Exceeding the CDR rating of the cell for continuous discharge, as the name implies, will absolutely damage the cell and shorten its life expectancy. By how much depends on the cell chemistry, the amount of overcurrent, the length of the overcurrent etc and can’t be put in clear numbers. Sometimes the datasheets of higher quality cells indicate how many cycles you get at varying discharge currents, but that’s rare.
Exceeding the CDR for short bursts does not really damage the cells, as the CDR is the limit for continuos discharge after all, and most cells have ~2 times CDR for burst discharge. (Note: this does not apply for protected cells, those usually just shut down entirely on overcurrent disregarding the duration).
For lights like the D3AA that can sustain turbo only for a very short time before overheating and throttling, exceeding the CDR should be pretty fine.
In other hosts that can hold turbo for longer times I would not use cells that have a CDR lower than the turbo current.
Protected cells you can just use in any light. If they are overloaded they will shut down, and no damage to the light or the cell should occur.
IMO, Turbo is nice to have in much the same way airbags are. I rarely use Turbo, but when I do it’s for one of two reasons; either to show if, and 2-3 seconds is long enough so sustainability is a non-issue, or when I’m in a situation where going beyond normal operational parameters is worth the price. And those situations rarely last long enough that the fact that lasting less than 30 seconds is likewise a non-issue. I can get sustainable output without the limitations with only half a brain, but I can’t raise the ceiling in under half a second if I need to go beyond the maximum output you consider prudent.
That said, I’m more aware of the limitations of Turbo and high ceilings, especially in small hosts. For me, it’s basically a case of " Better to have and not need than need and not have". I’m not the type to send a 14500 light to do a 21700 light’s job when there are other options.
That depends on whether you consider a ~$5 battery to be a family heirloom to pass down to your grandchildren, or merely a maintenance item that needs replacement every 2-3 years. A low-CDR cell will limit maximum performance, but many lights, especially 14500 lights, will go into thermal rampdown quickly enough that it’s largely a self-solving problem. I say “largely” since if the mismatch is too great, the battery won’t supply enough power to generate the heat for rampdown, which makes the surge condition last longer, which in turn wears the cell more/faster. The thermals on 14500 lights are such that it’s still not a huge issue, though it may be in some 18650/21700 lights.
And that is why I love that temperature graphs on tests. Mooch lists a maximum temperature and adjusts his recommended CDR accordingly if warranted.
Electrical engineering is complicated. Even the Naval Nuclear Propulsion Training Command (NNPTC) that crams 2-3 years of college, including Nuclear Physics, into 40 weeks spends a lot of that time on it.
Unless you really have a burning need to know all the details and are wiling to spend a lot of time and effort on it, the only thing you really need to know is that most of us have reasons for making the recommendations we do, and while there are some outliers, a weighted average of recommendations will get you close enough to the truth through mere trust.
I emphasize “weighted” for two main reasons. One is that when a couple of randos say something that contradicts what dozens of others say, you have to go with the weight of evidence. Another is that some people know more than others, but it takes time/experience to who who really knows things and who is just pulling stuff out of their (random bodily orifice).
Wurkkos cells are rewrapped Lishen cells, which are decent enough even if they are not the best. Many of us who can choose prefer Molicel, Vapcell, and Samsung, depending on specifics. For 14500 cells, Vapcells are best. But Wurkkos cells are fine so long as you don’t mind replacing them a couple years down the road. Hell, I still have some Wurkkos cells in my battery rotation despite having Molicels. I simply don’t use them in certain lights that I know will exceed their limits by enough to be a problem. I have a few lights that do over 6000 lumen, and Wurkkos cells can’t handle them.
