Tint mixing, improving de-domed emitters. (Are XM-L2s and XP-G2s good options to MT-G2 in some ways?)

Flashlight Modding and DIY Parts
1

Some may have seen the Mod comparison: Modded SRK, vs de-domed SRK (UV-S5) thread I made. It shows the highly increased throw with de-domed XM-ls in a SRK reflector.

I have also tested some stock NW XP-Gs in a SRK reflector in combination with the Supfire M6 driver circuit.

This is a step further, and I think the info deserves its own thread. I have been experimenting some more. No, I am not talking about mixing XM-L and XM-L2s. Nor am I talking about making lots of fingerprints on top of reflectors, or putting in a set of de-domed emitters or XP-G2s.

Im talking about mixing de-domed emitters with standard emitters. Im talking combining emitters with the opposite color tones in order to improve the tint of de-domed emitters.

Im sure most are familiar with de-doming CW emitters in gasoline and such. The tint gets warmer (or less cool), but you still have that low CRI, you loose output, and you normally get a tint shift towards yellow if not green-ish. Basically, a decent NW emitter will be better at everything except throw. But when it comes to SRks and such lights. Most would say that the flood is bright enough, at least I would, especially when modded for even higher output than stock. Depending on taste and what you want to use the light for, it might be more beneficial to increase throw instead of just increasing the flood even more.

Mixing emitters is a way to make the beam just as you like it.

Lets take a look at my current XP-G2 light. The Ansi white picture may be useful.

-XP-G2 R5 1A de-domed

-XP-G2 R5 1A de-domed

-XP-G2 R4 5A4

Why the 5A4? Its the most red-toned XP-G2 I know if. Its a nice way to neutralize the slight yellow tones of the de-domed XP-G2s.

Result: A very nice neutral tint without any distinct yellow tone at all. It has quite good throw too and an overall very useful beam. Its "only" pushing out about 2,57A average to each emitter (more info here). But that is more than a healthy king. Due to XP-G2s having less output at that current, its still slightly less light than good stock SRK, but throw much better, and beam is very useful.

Lets take a look at the XM-L/XM-L2 light then.

-CW XM-L de-domed (unknown stock emitter, very yellow-ish after de-domed. Maybe a T6 1C?)

-CW XM-L de-domed (unknown stock emitter, very yellow-ish after de-domed. Maybe a T6 1C?)

-XM-L2 T3 6A1 (80+ CRI emitter)

Same recipe as the XP-G2 setup. Two de-domed emitters, both being quite yellow-ish. I combined those with an XM-L2 emitter (6A1) which is the XM-L2 emitter with the highest amount of red-tone I have and, and know of. It was not enough to neutralize the overly yellow, slight greenish tone from both of the de-domed XM-Ls. Those emitters combined just had too much of a yellow tone to them. But it improved the tint a lot! It improved CRI much. And the light still throws much better than a stock SRK at similar current. If I had started out with some 1A XM-Ls, it should be been a lot less yellow. But even as it is now, I think the tint and beam is really nice. I would consider both of these lights a success!

Do you notice the combination of slightly different emitters?

No. (Its barely visible on a white wall if you look quite hard for it from very close range, 1-2 meters.)

Is this a great way to form the beam into what you like?

yes

Is this a great option for an MT-G2?

That might depend on the eyes, but I would say, yes. In some lights it is. This is why:

Not only are 3 XM-L2s slightly cheaper. Depending on how you mix emitters, you could end up getting more lumens too.

Using 3 emitters give you a bunch good options when it comes to driver circuits, assuming you want 30++ watts of power and are into modding. You can use batteries in parallel, or you can wire the emitters in series or parallel depending on the driver.

The "default" MT-G2 (from IOS) is 5000K and probably 75-CRI. Mixing various emitters gives you endless combinations of tint. Its just up to you finding out what you like, and how much throw you want...

Many seem to work hard to achieve more throw out of the MT-G2s. Im pretty certain the XM-L(2) light above will out-throw an MT-G2 when the MT-G2 is in a larger reflector. It will also output more lumens.

Im not saying you will be able to make a precisely similar tint as the MT-G2, or that you will get the same beam pattern, a big wide hot-spot + lots of spill. But you have endless combinations that is somewhat similar and very flexible.

Ill see when I get around to take some beam shots. But If you're a flashoholic who are into modding and like to shape the tint and beam pattern of your lights, then you might want to test some of this stuff out.. :)

Oh, and who said you have to use a limit yourself to a 3 emitter reflector, the possibilities are endless! :)

Happy modding! :)

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This is getting crazy. Too many possibilities now. For my sanity, I'm pretending I didn't read this.

3

bugger you beat me to it! good to see it might work though.

I’m modding my fit 40s (7* xm-l 3s 18650) next month (got to order the driver and was trying to justify 7 80cri xm-l2’s) using this method I could dedome four of the standard emitters and intersperse 3 hi cri emitters for tint/cri. Then I just need to machine a 3 26650 tube and sideswitch housing and it should be good to go.

Great thread, thanks for sharing.

4

Haha... Well, I know you have dipped your toe slightly into this emitter mixing before. With-de-domed emitters there are not that many emitters out there that will neutralize the color tone, so the 6A1 will probably be the default choice.

I have had this on my agenda for a very long time. Like many other projects. But I like to take one step at the time, so I have been building up too it. :)

It works great. For me, another great thing is that now I know that when I have one emitter that I don't like as much, I just find the opposite in terms of color tone and then they mix nicely. :) Its nice knowing it works in practice too.

For months I have been playing a lot with holding 2 or single 3 lights side by side and playing with tint mixing. Now its time to put that knowledge into some multi-emitter lights. The days of having 3 of the same emitter in multi emitter lights are probably over for me. Its just nice knowing de-domed emitters can be combined nicely with regular emitters too. On some hard driven lights that have emitters in parallel, mixing XM-L2s and XP-G2s should work nicely too. As long as the XP-G2s are copper mounted. Normally, i prefer XM-L2 over XP-G2s though.

In my 9 XM-L light I have been saving up 1.st gen XM-L emitters for some time now. A bunch of various emitters should blend quite easily in a light like that. The main issue is that I will be lacking emitters with a red-tone (unless I buy them). Time will tell how it turns out. It should end up much better than stock though. As always, If I don't like it, ill change it. I often mod the same light several times anyway over some months. :p

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That is a nice way you are going, I really like these explorations :-)

I am not sure that 3 XM-l's in a SRK sized light will out-throw a MT-G2 in a single-reflector light of the diameter of the SRK. I will have to calculate that (or has someone a ready proven answer?) but my feeling says that it will not be that far off. Also the price of three XM-L's are close to one MT-G2.

A concern that may not be a real world problem: I found in my weird but fun handbuild 9V light that two leds of different tint, even if almost on top of each other, will give funny shadow effects because the light of the different colour come from a slightly different angle. Does this happen to these lights as well (reflectors will make this effect less, but the leds are further apart than in my build).

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Thanks djozz. :)

The MT-G2 needs much deeper reflector in order to "throw". It will not throw much at if its in a similar sized (with and depth) reflector as SRK triple.

Lets take a look at the SRK@32W vs MT-G2 in much deeper and larger reflector (ZY-T13) @ about 21W.

Ill take some beamshots from this thread.

SRK, modded to 3A+ to the emitters and NW XM-L2 (80+ CRI). About 32 Watt - mouse out

ZY-T13 MT-G2 @ 3,29A. About 21 watt- mouse over

Let compare with pictures from this thread (pictures have different exposure and WB, which is the reason why I do not take SKR de-domed vs ZY-T13 with MT-G2)

SRK, modded to 3A+ to the emitters and NW XM-L2 (80+ CRI). About 32 Watt - mouse out (same light as the mouse out in the previous shot)

SRK, stock 2,3A to the emitters, 3 de-domed CW XM-L (T6). About 22-23Watt? Mouse over

I think its quite clear that the 3/3 de-domed XM-Ls in a SRK reflector will EASILY out throw an MT-G2 in much larger an deeper reflector. So should 2/3.

1/3 XM-Ls de-domed will probably do the trick as well. At least be somewhat similar. Again, the XM-Ls are in a smaller reflector. And Im not even putting (de-domed) XP-G2s in the equation if throw is the goal.

Relic38 answered a question for me here. Ill quite him since he have the numbers.

His MT-G2 light uses more energy, about 34W vs 28,5W for the SRK, it has a slightly wider reflector, it has a much deeper reflector, and none of his XM-L emitters are de-domed....

I think this backs up what I said above. 2/3 de-domed XM-L2s will easily out throw an MT-G2 despite sitting in a smaller reflector. And you can still save the tint/CRI and maintain output that are probably slightly higher than an MT-G2, if not pretty equal. If you want less throw. 1/3 de-domed.. The flexibility is great!

______________

[quote=djozz] A concern that may not be a real world problem: I found in my weird but fun handbuild 9V light that two leds of different tint, even if almost on top of each other, will give funny shadow effects because the light of the different colour come from a slightly different angle. Does this happen to these lights as well (reflectors will make this effect less, but the leds are further apart than in my build). [/quote]

I think I have noticed what you describe when holding two lights side by side. When emitters are combined in the same (SRK) reflector, I have not experienced the effect.

I hope others will share their experiences in this thread when it comes to mixing emitters in similar ways as I described in OP.

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Although I agree with everything said by the OP, I think it is a bit unfair to pass judgement on the MT-G2 just yet. Folks have been experimenting with xml's way longer than with MT-G2's. It's just a baby. Give it a chance to mature.

Additionally, dedoming the MTG2 creates a whole new beast. Just look at the reduction in surface area from that huge dome to the crystals underneath. It's something you have to see in action first hand to appreciate. The only 2 people that seem to have spoken about successful MTG2 dedomes so far are myself and Ohaya. And, we have barely done anything yet.

I must qualify what I call a dedome in my case. I do leave scraps of silicone right over the crystals as I don't want to remove any of the phosphor layer. I hope we figure out how to completely remove all the silicone without phosphor loss. I haven't attempted that step yet.

I'm not trying to take anything away from RaceR86's work or statements. I think it his work is awesome and I agree with his arguments about the strengths and weakness of the xml's vs mtg2's, as we currently understand the mtg2. It is looking like mtg2's may be best used in only big reflector lights with lots of battery capacity. We may end up finding out that in that situation, the xml may be the inferior thrower.

EDIT: I just wanted to say I don't want to derail this thread into a xml vs mtg2 debate. Lets get into what the heart of the experiments in the shown in the OP. This fantastic thing with mixing emitters of different types, bins, tints, cri, and dome status. It appears that great results can be realized. I agree with the OP that these multi emitters are more than floody enough most of the time. What a great way to customize one's light on so many different levels. This is going to be great!

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My experience so far has been limited to mixing tints and bins in 3 different lights. In each case I used 2 emitters of one tint and 1 different emitter of a different tint. Like the OP, I have found that the overall beam is impacted and quite uniformly. Only the outer clover leaf edges of the beam look different. I don't find this part of the beam very useful. I only really see the outer edges on white walls.

In the first 2 lights, I found the one warmer emitter over powered by the other 2. In my last light, I used 2 warmer emitters and one higher bin cooler, but still warm emitter. It was better, but still the one lost. So it looks like I need drivers that power the emitters separately to get a better balance.

I'm looking forward to getting more throw out of my multi emitters. Thank you very much for the work you have shown us RaceR86.

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Thanx for sharing these RaceR86. This makes me want to mod my SRK though I’m still finding it hard to remove its bezel. :slight_smile:

Has anyone tried this on the BTU Shocker yet? :~

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ImA4Wheelr, my goal was not to pass judgement on the MT-G2. I just wanted to compare the triple-emitters against it because I would consider it the "rival" in many cases. Thereby seeing some interesting discussion around the topic. :)

I just wanted to put some focus on the possibilities of emitter mixing in ways I have not seen done before.

As a "modder" my goal is always to try and see what kind of beams I can suqeeze out of a certain form factor. And this combination of emitter mixing can certainly improve many multi-emitter lights, depending on what type of beam you want. And that beam can be quite similar to an MT-G2.

I think its more beneficial/easier to just combine more similar emitters in order to get a better "balance" than to play with current. Whatever people do, its interesting to hear about the results, or thoughs. :)

[quote=Nightbird95] Thanx for sharing these RaceR86. This makes me want to mod my SRK though I'm still finding it hard to remove its bezel. :) Has anyone tried this on the BTU Shocker yet? :~ [/quote]

Tom E have done de-domed emitters in a BTU shocker, many people does de-domed emitters in various lights. I have never seen any talk about neutralizing the color tone though. When I say color tone, I am not talking about Kelvin/the warmth in the light. I am mainly talking about the color of the light.

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Thanks RaceR86. Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I should not post late at night. I get sloppier than I normally am.

I'm a bit defensive about the MTG2 as I have a soft spot for it. The first light I put one in pulled 250kcd. It out threw everything I had in a big way. I couldn't understand how people thought the emitter could not throw when it devastated everything I had after putting it in a $25 plastic light.

Then I got a TN31 and it out threw the TN too. Then I modded the TN and now the TN out throws my first MTG2. But, I have plans to change that. Again, sorry for having a chip on my shoulder. It's in my pocket now.

So, I am psyched about what you've reported. Yeah, people have been mentioning ideas of various mixes here and there, but it hit home for me seeing and hearing what you did in reality. I have to tell you. I had set plans for all my multi-emitters. This thread has me looking at them in a totally new light. I've decided to scratch those plans and think about what I really want those lights to do.

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Dont worry ImA4Wheelr.

I know you have a thing for the MT-G2. ;)

[quote=ImA4Wheelr]

I had set plans for all my multi-emitters. This thread has me looking at them in a totally new light. I've decided to scratch those plans and think about what I really want those lights to do.

[/quote]

Im glad to hear that and I look forward forward to hear what you come up with and how you like them. :)

13

This is an interesting experiment. Adding a little throw to the SRK is good. Might have to try this on my gold SRK with XM-L2 U2 1C emitters.

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Give it a shot and tell us how you like it and what you end up mixing.

Edit: I think the T3 6A1 from IOS should be one of the default start option when mixing 2 de-domed XM-L2s and a domed emitter.

15

Lets compare the two SRK with mixed emitters vs a few other NW emitters.

-On the top, representing the green-ish tint. De-domed XM-L2. Supposedly U2 1A. But I got this from KD. Im guessing it was T6 1C, if not a B.

-XM-L2 3B from FT

-XM-L2 4C from FT

-XM-L2 3A from intl-outdoor

-Info on the lights with mixed emitters in OP.

Looking away from that my 3A and 3B looks extremely similar to each other. I think its quite obvious that the emitter mixing worked its charm! Even when being 30cm from a white wall, there is not much signs of the various colors in the lights with mixed emitters. The XM-L light used to have a fairly green-ish hue. A bit like the de-domed XM-L2. Look at in now! :)

Too much greenish/yellowish tint. No problem neutralize the hue by adding an emitter with more red tones. :)

So, what do you guys and gals think? I know, photos are not the best way of comparing various tints, but I think this shows the differences in the various colors fairly good.

16

Very nice comparative beam shot photo. Was all that taken in one shot?

The tint improvement is impressive and consistant with my mixes as far as how the whole beam's tint is changed. When I aim a SRK type light at a wall, I get 3 faint clovers on the outside of the beam. Those are generally to tint of the nearest emitter. I don't see those in your photo. It may be the way the lights are oriented. I think I see some thing that may be clovers on both sides of the 3A beam. Since the light are aimed away, the other clovers would be way to dispersed and faint to see in the photo. Is that what is happening here?

17

Thanks!

Yes, all lights on at the same time and taken in one shot. All pointed at a proper white cinema screen.

The angle and and especially the slight overlapping with the other beams is minimizing the "clover" effect on the SRK/M6. Outer edge of the spill does not look that round and nice when pointed straight on a wall.

btw, the tint of a specific emitter is seen on the opposite of where it is placed in the reflector. In real life use im not able to spot it..

18

You're right. I misspoke. The lowest point for light to spill out is either the short walls in the center of the reflector or the distant walls on the far side of the reflector (No sure which one ends up actually cutting off the outside of the clover spill). So clover spill is on the opposite side of the emitter placement.

19

Interesting, and nice work for the picture! I can see the difference in color around the edge of the mixed emitters, but if you are outside/moving and not shining on a white wall I dont think you’d be able to tell much. Is the greenish dedomed XML2 that green in real life? I have a mixed multi-emitter with dedomed T6 and its more “neutral” definitely not green…do dedomed XML2s come out “green” typically? I’d heard dedomed color isnt really different depending on which color emitter you start with to dedome (CW, NW, WW), but this seems to say otherwise unless XML2s go “green” or the color is “off” in the picture…

I’ve actually found I like to vary color tones now, I get tired of CW and its too reflective bright in some circumstances, but after using a NW on the yellowish side I really liked that tint, and then started using a warm white and really loved using that for a while, ran out of power in my warm white and found I like CW again more…its interesting, I seem to get “bored” of one color tint, but I’m really liking warm white’s reduction in night vision recovery time.

20

I’ve been experimenting with this on my bike, of all things, with two S5 Convoys. One has a 1B and the other has a 5C1 emitter. As I change relative settings I can mix the colors together in different intensities. Kinda cool, or warm, or anywhere in between.