balance charging 18650's / 26650's

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okwchin
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Lighthound88 wrote:

benckie wrote:

even when i parrallel charge series li-po packs i always balance charge, there is a reason why some of of make the effort to balance charge.

Yes, series packs I always balance charge, Otherwise the pack could become useless because of the imbalance of the charge.

The word is PACKS. (Multiple cells in series denoting it as a pack).

That is the difference here, not loose cells.

Parallel charging packs is not the same as parallel charging cells.  

Lighthound is referring to how the parallel charging of the individual cells WITHIN a 3S lipo pack is not possible, because of the way they are wired together. He is correct. I think becknie is referring to the parallelcarging of individual cells, but across multiple packs. Personally im for balance charging in series for loose cells because of the high likelihood of cell voltage imbalance between cells at the start of charge, maybe more to do with the way I use my cells, and that my torches tend to be variations of single, double and triple cell torches. Cells that are permanently connected together in parallel, im happy to parallel charge, beasue its effectively just one bigger cell though. I guess it comes down to what you tend to do with your cells. Also regarding charging algorithm,etc.. Its all the same for lithium chemistry, in principle a very simple constant current, followed by a constant voltage. Nomatter how many cells, or chemistry, the algorithm is very simple in principle. All that matters is the charge current, and the final voltage for the constant voltage phase. All hobby chargers do this very well, only the super budget chargers seem to have difficulty doing this with the more limited set of components set by the budget. And its mostly just an issue with calibration/accuracy of the final resting voltage

"like everyone else - I’m looking for my next “last” flashlight" -  ohnonothimagain

benckie
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yes thats what i ment.

i series charge every thing aaa aa,s parrallel has its place, but like okwchin i have torches thats use multible cells 2 to 3 li-ions each and one single cell and i would not parrallel charge them due to the voltage diffrence.

even when i charge aa,s nimh i series charge, say two come out of my digital camera, two from my xbox 360 controller and four from a rc radio been doing that for years most premade packs for rc use are series and can only be charged in series look at the stick packs, yes the voltage of premade packs would be close, but internal resistance and even battery posistion can affect voltage.

even when parrallel charging multible series packs like 2s1p,s the balance leads are conected in parrallel the main charge discharge leads are connected in parrallel, the cells will balance say all cell 1,s will balance with cell 1,s and all cell 2,s will balance with cell 2,s, the over all voltage will balance but even my little 2s1p,s can deliver 66 amps each, so its best done if the cells are close or it can get intresting.

for the balance charge haters you dont even have to balance charge series placks, you can fast charge them, most chargers will cut out if one cell goes into over voltage (most cells have in built protection) and if you have the balance lead connected and you can see seperate voltage, but its best to balance charge if you go down this parth or atlest do it now and then.

this thread was started by me due to the lack of premade holders and charge cradles and some over complicated set ups ive see around thought it might help or inspire others, pitty this thread turned out to have more parrallel then balancing info and the thread has gone ot.

this thread is like the aussie ford and holden, gm or ford, chevy or doge trucks each person will pick out what they like for there reasons or regurgitate what they have seen else where, not many will have tryed and test each wat plus others and burnt out chargers and melted wires and seen how high the flames will get just to save a few hours charging, the people who have my hat is off to you.

if you want the best dam way to charge batteries its one by one with a 0.25 c charge at you are looking at 50+ hours constaint charging for 10 batteries or 10 days if you do one a night

there is a reason why some of use like to series charge and go the extra mile and balance series charge.

benckie
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well i made a 6 cell balance charging lead from 2 x 3s balance leads in series with a 2 x 3s to 6s series adaptor so i can balance charge 6 x 18650,s at once, it can be broken down to make 2 x single 3s balance leads and with the 2 x 3s to 6s series adaptor i don't have to use main charge leads to the magnets.

revision 1

i cut the yellow xt60 plug off and added two 4mm bullet connectors and some heat shrink to plug straight into the charger, i brought a couple of these from hobbyking for under 3 bucks each and have used them for rc.

2 x 3s balance leads with 8 x 8 mm nickel coated rare earth magnets soldered on the end's, with a bit of heat shrink added to keep the balance wires in pairs.

all joined together, the balacnce leads simply plug into the adaptor.

all plugged into my icharger and p350 power supply, with 6 x 18650 trustfire flame batteries

individual cell voltage's

it cost around 15 bucks to make most of the cost was the magnets, ill shorten the leads i think and ill make some thing similar using a flat pack battery holder soon.

okwchin
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Love that adapter, only concern with this adapter is the sparking that occurs when connecting this many cells to the balance port, a problem with such hobby chargers and dumping 22V into the filter caps (haha)

 

Love the way you managed to solder onto the magnets, very neat!

"like everyone else - I’m looking for my next “last” flashlight" -  ohnonothimagain

benckie
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yeah true, i make sure the charger is on every thing connected and you might get a little spark from the 6th battery when its connected but no worse then 2s or 3s ive noticed, but it should be no diffrent then connecting a 22.2c 6s lipo pack to the ballance port i hope and the way the adaptor is wired with the main charge cabes in series with the balance leads they should take some of the 22.2v dump.

the ichargers can take some abuse ive done some nasty stuff to it and it keeps going, but playing with such high voltage one should take caution, but i just halfed my balance charge time by 50% saving me around 4 hours for a slow balance charge.

ive done it this way to save using main charge leads and keep it simple so there is not a mess of working out where all the 6 balance wires goes, trying to keep it simple much easier to conect the batteries and the way the heat shrink is used with the way the magnets are soldered it make connection easy you dont realy have to think about what goes where, its only good for low c charging rates, but the next one will be a single 6s balance lead with a flat pack battery holder and the leads will be fixed no magnets as they are not the easiest thing to solder.

i feel a icharger 206b comming on, my power suply will handle it at the max 20 amp max charge and it would be good for parrallel balance charging 6 rc lipo packs at once as with this one im limeted to 10 amps max and then i can make up some 8s balance charge leads for my 18650,s as 6 is ok but 8 would be better.

okwchin
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Lol, its always like that, more more more! Hobbyking to the rescue!

 

Regarding the sparking, definitely more on 6S, I can see the blue light flashing through my balance connects when I connect the 6 cell batteries to the charger. The charger balance pins are changing shape due to the "welding" that occurs every time I plug one in. So I let the damage occur on the 6 cell 2 pack adapter that you have shown in the pics.

Where abouts are you in WA? Id love to see your setup some time.

"like everyone else - I’m looking for my next “last” flashlight" -  ohnonothimagain

benckie
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ill send you a message

okwchin
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lol, a fair way away by perth standards.. too far for the beam of my throwiest torch to reach... But the BLF is great.

 

I wonder if anyone else uses these hobby chargers, and how they use them.

"like everyone else - I’m looking for my next “last” flashlight" -  ohnonothimagain

HKJ
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okwchin wrote:
I wonder if anyone else uses these hobby chargers, and how they use them.

I have many LiIon chargers and often use them, but I do also use hobby chargers. I have two of these:

Where I can charge two cells in parallel.

For special size cells I have made made a clamp into a battery holder:

I always uses the hobby chargers to charge odd size batteries and when I want to charge fast, for regular charging I sometimes use the hobby charger, sometimes one of the other LiIon charges and if I need to charge many batteries I can have more than 6 chargers running.

I often use hobby charges to get a check on my LiIon cells, how much capacity they have left or when I want to discharge a cell.

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

benckie
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i like that clamp HKJ very handy and thats a luminous battery holder you linked me before, i still cant make up my mind for a flat pack or compack 6s battery holder for balancing.

im sure you would know but with the ichargers you can check the internal resistance of your batteries, it also will show resistance in charge leads, but the best part is checking the internal resistance of the batteries you can see them go down hill over time and how the batteries are charged affects the internal resistance.

ive seen some of my lipo,s go down hill fast with parrallel charging due to voltage diffrence, they dont like voltage diffrence, they can handle huge discharge rates but not charge rates.

another bonus with the icharge as im sure you know you can check an alter the calibration if needed, upgrade the firmware online and do logveiw to see how the batteries perform and adjust the sensitivity for charging nimh witch i find is good, they are cheap i dont know why more dont have them.

i spoke to my old man last night, i gave him a jetbeam bc40 and a couple of trustfire flames batteries as a gift with a single charge cradle i made, he told me it takes to long to charge one by one, so i will give hime my 2s balance charge lead and ill make another and ill make a 4s blance charge lead for myself as well.

ill have to get him a decent charger his imax b6 over charges and sets off the over voltage protection, hes had it for 5 or so years, the imax b6 ive played with normaly under charge and dont do nimh well, i can see him ending up with my 106b+ as i need some thing with more amperage for rc.

i have not seen DasFriek on for a bit i wounder how his set up is going ?

kneighbour
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Where do you get the plugs that go into the balance ports (on the Turnigy Accucell 6 in my case). I have even tried ebay, and while I can get made up cables for various battery packs, it does not look like I can find the plugs themselves easily.

I bought a JST-EH adaptor board with the Turnigy. That looks useful - so I guess I would be looking for EH type plugs. Or I could buy a whole pack of JST-XH plugs for the 6S port on the Turnigy, and only wire up each plug for the config I want?

I want to have a setup for 2S, 3S and 4S. I cannot imagine using any more than that. Currently (until I get this wiring issue worked out), I am simply using magnets and charging in series.

kneighbour
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Quote:

....they are cheap i dont know why more dont have them.

Sure - but the Turnigy Accucell 6 is currently only $22. Delivered to my door for around $32.  That is less than HALF of the price of the iCharger. I have only had my Turnigy for a few hours, but so far it seems just fine for charging torch batteries. I don't think I would use one if I was a serious R/C hobbyist, but as an alternative to AA, AAA and 18650 chargers, it seems like a good bet. 

I think if I was a serious R/C nut, I would look at something like the Hyperions, myself.

benckie
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the Turnigy Accucell 6 is currently only $22 for a reason mate.

any way ive found it easier to get jst-xh extention leads and just cut off the female plug, the jst-xh are the most common.

since your in australia

2s

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160589062439&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

3s

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JST-XH-JST-XH-3S-20cm-Charger-Extension-Cable-LIPO-/280502129815?pt=AU_Toys_Hobbies_Radio_Controlled_Vehicles&hash=item414f3ad497

4s

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160580876761&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

5s i think these will be way to short for 5 x 18650,s in series like ive been doing.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JST-XH-5S-18-5v-Lipo-Balance-Wire-Extension-Lead-20cm-/160580878795?pt=AU_Toys_Hobbies_Radio_Controlled_Vehicles&hash=item25635dc1cb

6s i think these will be way to short for 6 x 18650,s in series like ive been doing.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320700477513&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

silicone wire

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320661932596&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

4mm bullet connectors to plug into the main charge ports, with heat shrink

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160580835674&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

rare earth magnets if you want to keep using them and need more

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300558237544&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

heat shirnk for the balacne wires you can use 2 or 3mm found on ebay for about $1.80 a meter like this stuff

red

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350341140012&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

black

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350409535922&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

these are all from aussie sellers i belive, but if you want longer jst-xh balance wire extentions ive been getting a few of these from 30 to 45 cm,s i rather be looking at the extra lenght then looking for it i rather have to much then not enough, but its from the usa post time is around 2 weeks.

http://stores.ebay.com.au/BackBay-R-C-Accessories/_i.html?rt=nc&_nkw=jst%20xh&_sid=12622736&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1581&_pgn=4

or if you want to go even cheaper again but have a few week wait for shipping these guys are good.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/index.rc

i hope this helps

 

kneighbour
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benckie wrote:

the Turnigy Accucell 6 is currently only $22 for a reason mate.

any way ive found it easier to get jst-xh extention leads and just cut off the female plug, the jst-hx are the most common.

Thanks for the links. Am looking at getting a few of them as we speak. The short leads don't bother me - I can simply solder on more lead if required.

benckie
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no worries im happy to help and im not sponsored by ebay lolls just i can not get this stuff localy, also more joins adds more resistance, but thats being anal it should not be a problem till you hit 5s and 6s balancing like the set ups ive done but there is many ways to do it, i also ment jst-xh is the most common not jst-hx a typo there i have edited it, have fun.

benckie
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my old man pinched my 2s balance charge lead for his torch so i had to make another, i used shorter 22 awg 20 cm 2s balance extention lead and cut of the female end and used 18 awg main charge leads as the bigger stuff is not needed for these low charge rates and the usual male 4mm bullet connectors to plug in to the charger, lucky i had 3 magnets left over from my other leads i made.

benckie
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i brought a 2 x 18650 and a 6 x compact 18650 battery holder from here to make up some better balance charging set ups.

http://www.luminousdiy.com/Light%20Kits%20and%20Parts.htm#holders

looks like they will only be sold to the 1/10/11 ?

benckie
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here is a link for cheap 18650 battery holders

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&KeyWords=18650+battery+holder&x=26&y=24

it might only be good for usa customers as shipping to australia for one battery holder is $30 usd....

 

benckie
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I have got my battery holders from www.luminousdiy.com its a pity Chris is no longer going to be selling them

2 x 18650 and a compact 6 x 18650 (3 top 3 bottom)

I'm going to make these into balance charging box,s

benckie
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2S balance revision 0

ill neaten it up a bit but so far i like it better then the magnets.

benckie
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3 different brands, 3 different battery voltages and 3 diffrent mAh ratings

4 different brands and 6 different battery voltages 4 diffrent mAh ratings

kreisler
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the best thread on this topic on the inet, thanks!!

( and i have given up on hobby chargers. i dont feel ready for them hehe. lemme continue to watch my powerex )

*FMI* i got 4 i/o sh
Dimitrioptimus
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What will be best balanced Charger? to charge all types of cells ranging from Lead Acid,Nicd,Nimh,Lion,Lipo etc,& still is cheap reliable & has a good lifetime

 

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6792 (Is this Genuine ?)

  

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__6478__IMAX_B6_AC_Charger_Disc...

 


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__5548__IMAX_B6_Charger_Dischar...

 

If u have other suggestion then or experience with these charger then plz share,

Is it safe to purchase from Hobby King ? 

PierCC
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Dimitrioptimus wrote:

if u have other suggestion then or experience with these charger then plz share,


Is it safe to purchase from Hobby King ? 

 

I have an IMAX B6AC and find it great!

the only thing I do not like is the low discharge current (1A only)

I bought it from hobbyking, so good .. is genuine!

Icharger certainly is better but costs twice..
PierCC
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ah .. I forgot ..

if the balance function is essential for you .. do not get an IMAX B6.. it is not accurate in balancing

atbglenn
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PierCC wrote:

ah .. I forgot ..

if the balance function is essential for you .. do not get an IMAX B6.. it is not accurate in balancing

I got the Turnigy Accucell 6. How is balancing function on that?

Boycott Nike

PierCC
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I honestly do not know the Accucell 6,

at first sight seems very similar to B6 as a type of software and hardware, but it depends on the quality of resistors used,

the problem in my charger is due to the fact that they used 1 percent resistors instead of 0.1 percent resistors Sad

but I can not say if your accucel 6 has the same type of trouble..

Don
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atbglenn wrote:

PierCC wrote:

ah .. I forgot ..

if the balance function is essential for you .. do not get an IMAX B6.. it is not accurate in balancing

I got the Turnigy Accucell 6. How is balancing function on that?

 

It's a B6 clone. Take your own pick on how reliable it is.

Mine seems reliable when voltages checked on a borrowed insanely expensive Fluke meter which was recently calibrated by the NPL - which added a zero or two to its price. On my well battered Fluke which has never been calibrated I got the same results. Since I use the charger at work, it had to get checked by the sparkies (electricians) hired in for the job. It passed just fine which surprised me given the dirt cheap Chinese PSU I use with it.

 

Others may vary but mine is fine.

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

benckie
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I've used both and more, I like the ichargers but they cost a little more, still on the cheap side as far as RC chargers go

Dimitrioptimus
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PierCC,atbglenn,Don & benckie thankx all of you,by reading the views it's clear that :-

1>The Icharger has good balacing performance.

2>Icharger is better & pricier too.

3>Hobby King is reputed seller

But still there are some questions wandering in my grey matter which are as follows :-

 1>I saw in the HobbyKing site,they mentioned IMAX B6 charger as genuine but in case of ICharger 106B they didn't,So is ICharger is a clone ?

2>Can Imax charge a Ups Battery properly ? or 6*18650 ?

3>In case of Icharger they mention as 250watt,so is it input or output ? Can Icharger be plugged from a 12v 5A creative 5.1 Psu(but it will generate 60watt!) or a laptop 12v Psu ?

4>Imax vs ICharger which has the better price to performance ratio (reasons will be very much appreciated)

5>As PierCC said Imax do not have a good balancing so can anybody give the example? so I can figure out the amount of extent to Icharger

 

6>Should I have to buy a separate PSU with this(http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__6478__IMAX_B6_AC_Charger_Disc...)

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