[PART 1] Official BLF GT Group Buy thread. Group buy officially closed! Lights shipping.

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thijsco19
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Enderman wrote:
What program does 5ar use for the models? Solidworks?

Well, I would think people would use a tripod for that instead of putting it on a table…


He told me he uses cinema 4D.
I do use solidworks for my designs.
I’ve taken a look at cinema 4D and I just cant understand how he can make this in cinema 4d. So 5ar you sir, you are very good! Thumbs Up
Serious, do you use that program professionally?

Jerommel wrote:
This explains a lot:

The blue parabola is the accurate shape, it starts at the bottom with a 45° angle.
But this explains the difference in basic shape of our designs.
I use the blue one. It’s also a little deeper and has a brim on the big end.

That’s why he said:
I do not know which version is better but there is no need at this point to think about it because while I do not know the dimensions and shape of the reflector can not tell whether this look to stay because everything depends on the reflector. Small changes in the details affect the overall look, will be smarter when we know the details of the reflector.

I really like the V0.5. To be honest the V0.45 from MortyDuck looks good to (with that sharp edge on the head).
Though, that last design from 5ar is by far the best! Great job thinking a little bit different. It has a very tough and rough look to it, perfect for the best thrower!

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RollerBoySE wrote:
Looks aren’t everything.

When looking at the renders I realize, even more than before, that this light, not even sporting a handle, will be VERY diffucult to handle (as opposed to a box design with a handle).

So I’m out, please scratch me from the interest list.


Don’t agree with you, it is all about balance, just tested it out with my 10kg axe, 5kg axe and crate for bottles that has a central handle with 4 and 9 glass bottles filled with water.
The axes hold easier because the arms hangs straighter down the body.
The weight distribution of the 5kg axe (the 10kg is top heavy since their handles are a meter long) make it balance, I can hold it for a long long time en if needed carry it over shoulder, a box is much much harder to keep at eye level.
But we have had this discussion before Wink so no point in repeating it over and over, OP updated and you are replaced on the list.
Jerommel
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thijsco19 wrote:

Jerommel wrote:
This explains a lot:

The blue parabola is the accurate shape, it starts at the bottom with a 45° angle.
But this explains the difference in basic shape of our designs.
I use the blue one. It’s also a little deeper and has a brim on the big end.

That’s why he said:
I do not know which version is better but there is no need at this point to think about it because while I do not know the dimensions and shape of the reflector can not tell whether this look to stay because everything depends on the reflector. Small changes in the details affect the overall look, will be smarter when we know the details of the reflector.
A parabolic reflector has a given shape and proportions.
The one he uses to design a light around is way off.
The LED is not in the focal point, he’s using an incan light reflector model.
Iḿ sorry, but just look at the picture.
Do you think i should not have pointed this out?
And as i said, it does explain the different basic shapes between his and my designs.
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Jerommel wrote:
Here are some cold hard reflector facts illustrated:

Based on what i go by in my images, maybe it should be a little deeper still, because as you can see the actual amount of light that is focussed by the reflector is quite small.
But that’s the case with all regular reflector lights..
The best bit is just spilled…


Lets put a 23mm-35mm floating lens in front of the led. So it will focus the die to infinity. If we can find a lens that has the required focal distance and diameter we can even attach it to the front glass. Or below it.

It will be a form of large TIR optic that forwards most of the light straight forward.

We can calculate which part of the led light is wasted in spill and project that forward. And how big of a diameter lens we can put on a given focal length.

This is very interesting.

RollerBoySE
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The Miller wrote:
RollerBoySE wrote:
Looks aren’t everything.

When looking at the renders I realize, even more than before, that this light, not even sporting a handle, will be VERY diffucult to handle (as opposed to a box design with a handle).

So I’m out, please scratch me from the interest list.


Don’t agree with you, it is all about balance, just tested it out with my 10kg axe, 5kg axe and crate for bottles that has a central handle with 4 and 9 glass bottles filled with water.
The axes hold easier because the arms hangs straighter down the body.
The weight distribution of the 5kg axe (the 10kg is top heavy since their handles are a meter long) make it balance, I can hold it for a long long time en if needed carry it over shoulder, a box is much much harder to keep at eye level.
But we have had this discussion before Wink so no point in repeating it over and over, OP updated and you are replaced on the list.

Balancing definitely helps, but keeping it compact helps even more.
Just imagine controlling a 30cm (1 foot) long pole weiging 1kg (2 pounds) versus a 2 meter long pole of the same weight. The longer pole requires a lot more force and energy to control when swinging around.

Let’s just agree to disagree; no hard feelings from my side, but this project (the way it’s turning out) just isn’t for me.

Jerommel
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mdeni wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
Here are some cold hard reflector facts illustrated:

Based on what i go by in my images, maybe it should be a little deeper still, because as you can see the actual amount of light that is focussed by the reflector is quite small.
But that’s the case with all regular reflector lights..
The best bit is just spilled…


Lets put a 23mm-35mm floating lens in front of the led. So it will focus the die to infinity. If we can find a lens that has the required focal distance and diameter we can even attach it to the front glass.
You read my mind !
Been thinking about a set up like that for some time.
Quote:

It will be a form of large TIR optic that forwards most of the light strait forward.
All of it basically Smile :)
Quote:

We can calculate which part of the led light is wasted in spill and project that forward. And how big of a diameter lens we can put on a given focal length.

This is very interesting.

Thumbs Up
Jerommel
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RollerBoySE wrote:
The Miller wrote:
RollerBoySE wrote:
Looks aren’t everything.

When looking at the renders I realize, even more than before, that this light, not even sporting a handle, will be VERY diffucult to handle (as opposed to a box design with a handle).

So I’m out, please scratch me from the interest list.


Don’t agree with you, it is all about balance, just tested it out with my 10kg axe, 5kg axe and crate for bottles that has a central handle with 4 and 9 glass bottles filled with water.
The axes hold easier because the arms hangs straighter down the body.
The weight distribution of the 5kg axe (the 10kg is top heavy since their handles are a meter long) make it balance, I can hold it for a long long time en if needed carry it over shoulder, a box is much much harder to keep at eye level.
But we have had this discussion before Wink so no point in repeating it over and over, OP updated and you are replaced on the list.

Balancing definitely helps, but keeping it compact helps even more.
Just imagine controlling a 30cm (1 foot) long pole weiging 1kg (2 pounds) versus a 2 meter long pole of the same weight. The longer pole requires a lot more force and energy to control when swinging around.

Let’s just agree to disagree; no hard feelings from my side, but this project (the way it’s turning out) just isn’t for me.

Meh, it’s only 30cm long.
It’s a one footer. Big Smile
Nicolaas
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RollerBoySE wrote:
The Miller wrote:
RollerBoySE wrote:
Looks aren’t everything.

When looking at the renders I realize, even more than before, that this light, not even sporting a handle, will be VERY diffucult to handle (as opposed to a box design with a handle).

So I’m out, please scratch me from the interest list.


Don’t agree with you, it is all about balance, just tested it out with my 10kg axe, 5kg axe and crate for bottles that has a central handle with 4 and 9 glass bottles filled with water.
The axes hold easier because the arms hangs straighter down the body.
The weight distribution of the 5kg axe (the 10kg is top heavy since their handles are a meter long) make it balance, I can hold it for a long long time en if needed carry it over shoulder, a box is much much harder to keep at eye level.
But we have had this discussion before Wink so no point in repeating it over and over, OP updated and you are replaced on the list.

Balancing definitely helps, but keeping it compact helps even more.
*Just imagine controlling a 30cm (1 foot) long pole weiging 1kg (2 pounds) versus a 2 meter long pole of the same weight. The longer pole requires a lot more force and energy to control when swinging around.
*
Let’s just agree to disagree; no hard feelings from my side, but this project (the way it’s turning out) just isn’t for me.

Sooo, basically you want a 1Mcd+ thrower, to illuminate objects at very large distances, and you also want to be able to flick it around in an instant? Really? Why?

Grtz
Nico

Nicolaas
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Jerommel wrote:
mdeni wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
Here are some cold hard reflector facts illustrated:

Based on what i go by in my images, maybe it should be a little deeper still, because as you can see the actual amount of light that is focussed by the reflector is quite small.
But that’s the case with all regular reflector lights..
The best bit is just spilled…


Lets put a 23mm-35mm floating lens in front of the led. So it will focus the die to infinity. If we can find a lens that has the required focal distance and diameter we can even attach it to the front glass.
You read my mind !
Been thinking about a set up like that for some time.
Quote:

It will be a form of large TIR optic that forwards most of the light strait forward.
All of it basically Smile :)
Quote:

We can calculate which part of the led light is wasted in spill and project that forward. And how big of a diameter lens we can put on a given focal length.

This is very interesting.

Thumbs Up

.
.
.
Really guys, I mean really?

We have decided to gor for a 120 mm reflector hundreds of posts ago, and now we opt for a pre-collimating lens and a aespheric lens or a hughe TIR optic?
Don’t you think this will make the flashlight “a litte bit” more expensive and, with a TIR lens that big, quite a bit more heavy or (if plastic) more prone to lens-scratches?

It does sound very interesting, but please keep the basics of this project in scope: low cost, easy to manufacture etc……..in other words doable.,

But hey, maybe next BLF thrower project can be a massive pre-collimating + aespheric torch? 2Mcd perhaps?

Grtz
Nico

Jerommel
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Jerommel wrote:
thijsco19 wrote:

Jerommel wrote:
This explains a lot:

The blue parabola is the accurate shape, it starts at the bottom with a 45° angle.
But this explains the difference in basic shape of our designs.
I use the blue one. It’s also a little deeper and has a brim on the big end.

That’s why he said:
I do not know which version is better but there is no need at this point to think about it because while I do not know the dimensions and shape of the reflector can not tell whether this look to stay because everything depends on the reflector. Small changes in the details affect the overall look, will be smarter when we know the details of the reflector.
A parabolic reflector has a given shape and proportions.
The one he uses to design a light around is way off.
The LED is not in the focal point, he’s using an incan light reflector model.
Iḿ sorry, but just look at the picture.
Do you think i should not have pointed this out?
And as i said, it does explain the different basic shapes between his and my designs.

So the good thing this implies is that we would likely meet with our ideas in the end.
So there. Smile
thijsco19
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Jerommel wrote:
A reflector has a given shape and proportions.
The one he uses to design alight around way off.
The LED is not in the focal point, he’s using an incan light reflector model.
Sorry, but just look at the picture.
Do you think i should not have pointed this out?

No, you’ve made a good point.
But he already knew it, and so he put a disclaimer in his post saying exactly what you mean.
Though, if he would tweak his design to suit the reflector it would only be some minor tweaks. So not a big deal imo at this point (which is all about outside design)

Alright, I’ve redraw my design so I could run a thermal simulation. Here is the result:

As I said, I’m not sure how accurate it is since this is the first time I did this. However i think this give us a good representation about how it will perform.
This is with a 40watt load distributed along the led shelf. Imaging that the MCPCB will evenly distribute the entire 40 watt load on the shelf.
Thermal convection coefficient is 20W/ (m^2.k), I really dont know what that means but its a good number for natural air convection. (like walking around outside I guess)
Ambient temperature is 300 kelvin around 30 degrees celcius.
I’ve run another simulation with a convection coefficient of 50W/ (m^2.k) and that gives a 20 degrees celcius difference (cooler).

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Nicolaas wrote:

Really guys, I mean really?
Yes, really.
But not for this project. Wink
Could be a great mod though.
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Nicolaas wrote:

Sooo, basically you want a 1Mcd+ thrower, to illuminate objects at very large distances, and you also want to be able to flick it around in an instant? Really? Why?

Grtz
Nico

It was just an example to help with realizing that size matters.
Small adjustments of something well balanced won’t be too hard, but keeping the length down helps quite a bit over time.

Jerommel
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thijsco19 wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
A reflector has a given shape and proportions.
The one he uses to design alight around way off.
The LED is not in the focal point, he’s using an incan light reflector model.
Sorry, but just look at the picture.
Do you think i should not have pointed this out?

No, you’ve made a good point.
I’m glad we agree.
Quote:

But
Forget the buts.
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thijsco19 wrote:

And this simulation confirms what i was saying a few sites before.

Building PC heatsinks and watercooler for more than 10 years (as an hobby) is helping a lot when you try to figure out if a thermal design will work. Silly

New WildTrail (former LuckySun) D80v2 Sale has Started http://budgetlightforum.com/node/66255

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Nicolaas wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
mdeni wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
Here are some cold hard reflector facts illustrated:

Based on what i go by in my images, maybe it should be a little deeper still, because as you can see the actual amount of light that is focussed by the reflector is quite small.
But that’s the case with all regular reflector lights..
The best bit is just spilled…


Lets put a 23mm-35mm floating lens in front of the led. So it will focus the die to infinity. If we can find a lens that has the required focal distance and diameter we can even attach it to the front glass.
You read my mind !
Been thinking about a set up like that for some time.
Quote:

It will be a form of large TIR optic that forwards most of the light strait forward.
All of it basically Smile :)
Quote:

We can calculate which part of the led light is wasted in spill and project that forward. And how big of a diameter lens we can put on a given focal length.

This is very interesting.

Thumbs Up

.
.
.
Really guys, I mean really?

We have decided to gor for a 120 mm reflector hundreds of posts ago, and now we opt for a pre-collimating lens and a aespheric lens or a hughe TIR optic?
Don’t you think this will make the flashlight “a litte bit” more expensive and, with a TIR lens that big, quite a bit more heavy or (if plastic) more prone to lens-scratches?

It does sound very interesting, but please keep the basics of this project in scope: low cost, easy to manufacture etc……..in other words doable.,

But hey, maybe next BLF thrower project can be a massive pre-collimating + aespheric torch? 2Mcd perhaps?

Grtz
Nico


We are still going with the 120mm reflector. No precolimations.

In this 120mm light we can add a small lens, to focus the spill forward, and gain a significant percent of the light towards the corona.

Just throwing some relevant performance ideas out there. Instead of discussing 20 pages for 3 fins or a notch. Smile

Jerommel
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mdeni wrote:

Just throwing some relevant performance ideas out there. Instead of discussing 20 pages for 3 fins or a notch. Smile

If you want performance i would say recoil reflector set up.
Problem though, is finding a decent and affordable 5 inch reflector that can take at least 120° from the LED.
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No lenses, but if you show us how to make it float I am sure we are all very impressed and Penn and Teller might want to know it too Wink

Just kidding, lenses are for another project not the GT.

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The Miller wrote:
No lenses, but if you show us how to make it float I am sure we are all very impressed and Penn and Teller might want to know it too Wink

Just kidding, lenses are for another project not the GT.


.
.
.
Penn and Teller. Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile
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K.I.S.S(keep it simple stupid)
especially when we are making a BUDGET flashlight, i don’t want a cheap Chinese len, the quality is very poor

Forgot my pen

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When popcorn alone just won’t cut it… add a soft drink of your choice. Thumbs Up

Big Smile

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thijsco19
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Thanks thijsco19, that is informative not to mention just downright cool. Thumbs Up

Smile

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load./"Bear" Bryant 

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So basically it looks like from the thermal simulations that the current design is just enough to keep an XHP35 cool enough to not burn you. Anything more and it will get too hot and need to step down. So we for sure need to keep cooling in mind as night time temps here in Texas can be easily 90f+ which would allow it to get even hotter.

Good info!

As far as the reflector goes, 5AR has not had a design to work with since we do not know what we will be using yet. That said I really like the shape he has come up with anyways, the strong taper to the head just doesn’t do it for me, looks a bit silly IMO.

There will naturally be some redesigns once we find a reflector.

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Texas_Ace wrote:
So basically it looks like from the thermal simulations that the current design is just enough to keep an XHP35 cool enough to not burn you. Anything more and it will get too hot and need to step down. So we for sure need to keep cooling in mind as night time temps here in Texas can be easily 90f+ which would allow it to get even hotter.

And remember, this simulation is done with a convection coefficient of 30 W/(m^2.k), which is natural convection (almost no moving air/no forced cooling). If you would walk outside that number will increase, and that has a big impact on the results. (increasing the number to 40W reduces the temp by ~5 degrees celcius)
Also the battery tube isn’t part of the simulation, so that increase the mass which will reduce temps slightly.
And finally you hand plays a big role in cooling a light (well only if you’r not waring gloves but in the winter the temps are low enough that it wont have problems).

So I think that the cooling is good enough. Maybe some small tweaks.

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It is good enough, I am not saying any major changes but we for sure don’t want any less cooling. The extra fins in 5AR’s last design is about the most I think would be needed.

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Wow, they all look good!!!
.


.

My favorites are 5ar’s V0.5 & MortyDuck’s V0.45 (the combo version of 5ar’s V0.4 & V0.5)
Tough choice…… Smile

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I agree, my favorites are the .45 and .5 as well, hard to pick between them.

I think I like the .45 better myself but based on others in this thread I think the .5 will have a wider appeal.

Given time I think the .5 will grow on me as well.

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First, I’d like to point out that not all parabola’s are created equal. There is no fixed parabolic formula for flashlights, which is why 200 flashlights on my shelves all have different profiles. There is simply no such thing as perfection. It all starts going wrong when we leave the pinpoint of light at the source and spread out the die surface, that gives us multiple points of output and the parabola suffers when trying to converge the beam.

The Nitecore P30 is a nice example of being different, at approximately 43Wx40D it approaches that “square” ratio and as such it throws very well for a smallish light, illuminating out at 670M with a mere 1070 lumens from an HI. I’m not prepared to cut my TN42 reflector in half so you can see an example of a thrower’s parabola (approx 89Wx88D), nor am I willing to cut the SR-90 Intimidator’s as it too can do over a mile…. and at 88Wx60D it’s more of a bowl than you’re describing as perfect. At any rate, having had several different lights in hand that attain a mile throw, I can tell you for a fact that each one had a different parabolic formula.

All we can really do is wait and see what reflector is available for our need and test it to see how it performs. We just might not be able to get a proper reflector that does what we want. Not without designing it first.

I have a 200mm convection lens from Edmunds, it lists for $135 for the glass lens alone.

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Conclusion is if you have more cooling fins you have more square area of cooling to the surrounding air. I think if the cooling fins can be cut deeper. And they have a bigger diameter you will have the best result. Is it easy to do the thermal analysis again with wider cooling fins and in between the fins deeper milled (smaller diameter). PS I like the .5 style

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