New Convoy S21D w/ legendary Nichia 219b :) - Impression & comparison w/ Nichia 519a & E21a (in Emisar) & other great LED's.

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jon_slider
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cannga wrote:
Samsung LH351D
CCT 3735, Ra 98, R9 97
I have not seen an R9 of 90+ on an LH351d before

it is nominally a 9050 LED, whereas the SST-20, 219b, and E21a are 9080 variants

the red bar is shorter on LH351d, than on 219b, sst-20, and E21a:

.

look also at the DUV for each LED.. the SST in this case, is greener tinted (higher DUV, farther above the BBL) than the LH351d (varies by CCT also)

additional food for thought
compare R9, R10, R11 bars (red, yellow, green)

notice the red bar is not shorter than the yellow and green on the 219b, iow it has the most consistent red, yellow, green color rendering capability

the yellow and green are taller than the red on the LH351d, iow it renders yellow and green, better than red

the green bar is taller than the red in the SST-20, iow, it renders green better than red and yellow

photos of plants tend to lack yellow and red targets, they tend to be rich in greens. trivia.. plants look really green under low cri light, it does not reveal red pigments at all

twisted raven
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Maukka did do a couple charts of the LH351D when he was playing with Lee minus green filters. They turned the LH351D into a CRI monster with like 98 cri and 80+ R9.

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here is one of maukkas threads about Lee Filters,

and how they affect DUV..

maukka wrote:
.

they show a small increase in R9, not significant, and comes at the expense of a large reduction in output, imo

Lee filters Light transmission
No filter: 100 %
1/8: 88.8 %
1/4: 83.8 %
1/2: 73.7 %

Im not a fan of Lee filters.. (they not only rob output, they also create excessive pink tint across the whole beam, when it might only be needed on part of the beam). The filter color is also not stable, it fades, and the coating is fragile, it wipes off easily with alcohol… I would rather use a better LED in the first place

cannga
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jon_slider wrote:
I have not seen an R9 of 90+ on an LH351d before it is nominally a 9050 LED, whereas the SST-20, 219b, and E21a are 9080 variants

Great discussion guys.

Jon, a couple of questions for you:
1. The Lee filter – is that the same as the typical green filter that people would use? Its problem with light loss, fading, etc. Is that typical of these filters? I have no interest, just curious.
2. Good catch, R9 for LH351D LED is not 97 (my mistake), but still in the 90’s, 92. The numbers I quoted is from “u/maukka.” Did I read that right? I don’t care so much about the exact number but am curious: how much is the typical variation in CRI among different bins of a LED? And is that what we are seeing here (different R9 numbers)?

https://www.reddit.com/r/flashlight/comments/8ah7ss/samsung_lh351d_is_a_...

cannga
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EDIT: Oh I see now Jon. Your low R9 is for the 5000k Samsung LED. Mine is the 4000k version.

I actually have that 5000k LED in my Sofirn D25L headlamp (Can’t control myself and have bought way too many lights. Facepalm Smile ) It is horribly green and that’s why I haven’t talked about it.

BTW that Sofirn D25L headlamp on Amazon and their mention of the Samsung LED is one reason I got started in this hobby – “hmm the LED’s are different”.

jon_slider
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> The Lee filter – is that the same as the typical green filter that people would use?

yes, a minus green filter is a pink photography gel, they came in free swatchbook samples, here is a pic of some I tested.. I no longer use filters..

there is a higher grade, more temperature resistant, that maukka used in the post you linked

Zircon 804: light transmission 83.6%

good catch that the R9 difference are for different CCT ..
it still seems unusually high R9 for LH351d.. I do not attribute that to the Lee Filter, but rather a “good batch” of LEDs.. at that time..

twisted raven
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The only Lee filters I would use are the Zircon filters. They’re used professionally and don’t fade really easily. The 804 I have in my ROT66 gen 2 has seen 100s of hours of usage on lower to medium outputs, and is still as pink as the fresh 804 I still have rolled up in my storage. Very easy to sandwich a Zircon filter between the lens and optics on TIR lights. I’ve never used them for reflector lights.

Up until this point my favorite high CRI combination has been SST20 with 804 over them. The combination gave more output, more throw, and just as good if not better color rendering and same rosy tint as 219Bs. But now since dedomed 519As are a thing, it’s probably finally time to switch over.

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glad to know the Zircon is much more durable than the swatch book gels

dedomed 519a is fun, not as low a DUV as 219b sw45k, but lower DUV than SST-20 and LH351d.. a dedomed 519a, might resemble an SST-20 with a Zircon 804 Wink

We are fortunate to have great 9080 LED choices, in a range of Tints now.

sw45k, E21a, SST-20, 519a, all offer 9080 CRI LEDs, with varying Tints

I still like Tint below the BBL, but Im seeing that an LED does not need to be ultra pink to have great color rendering, even if it looks slightly greener than some sw45k.. Wink

.

cannga
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519a 4500k de-domed (24% CCT deduction, more negative BBL) – may look exactly like 219b 3500k?

BTW, I am finding out more & more: photography is excellent at telling how two LED’s are different (for example 219b and 519a), or how they are the same (219b and E21a). BUT… to have the complete “picture,” you have to combine photography with real-live view to be 100% sure. For example, the Emisar has a strong hotspot (vs Convoy’s floody), so for the Emisar picture, only the center part reflects what I see in real life – a beautifully warm tint. The under-exposed periphery appears too saturated.

When is photography superior, IMHO? Example – 219b & 519a: crop of the red hat and back ground leaves no doubt about 519a’s positive Duv tint. 219b versus E21a: I hear comments all over the place re. what E21a looks like. A photography crop shows even w/ staring and repeated staring (shutterbugs call this pixel peeping), I cannot tell them apart. ie For all practical purposes, identical.


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> 519a 4500k de-domed (24% CCT deduction, more negative BBL) – may look exactly like 219b 3500k?

the Tint DUV is lower on the dedomed 519a, I like it better than 219b 3500k. Note also the variation between some of my 219b 3500k

.

.

.

cannga
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twisted raven wrote:
The only Lee filters I would use are the Zircon filters. They’re used professionally and don’t fade really easily. The 804 I have in my ROT66 gen 2 has seen 100s of hours of usage on lower to medium outputs, and is still as pink as the fresh 804 I still have rolled up in my storage. Very easy to sandwich a Zircon filter between the lens and optics on TIR lights. I’ve never used them for reflector lights.

Up until this point my favorite high CRI combination has been SST20 with 804 over them. The combination gave more output, more throw, and just as good if not better color rendering and same rosy tint as 219Bs. But now since dedomed 519As are a thing, it’s probably finally time to switch over.

I looked up the ROT66 – VERY nice, and powerful. I love my beer-can size SP36 BLF (among my most favorite) and would enjoy having the ROT66 if I hadn’t had so many lights already. Is company still active? Wonder why they stop making it?

cannga
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jon_slider wrote:
> 519a 4500k de-domed (24% CCT deduction, more negative BBL) – may look exactly like 219b 3500k?

the Tint DUV is lower on the dedomed 519a, I like it better than 219b 3500k. Note also the variation between some of my 219b 3500k

Jon you are a great source of information. Mention Nichia and I could see your eyes light up, rubbing hands together . Thumbs Up Smile

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Fireflies is still active and still selling lights, but they’ve been hit hard by the chip shortage, so they can’t produce any more E12R and Nov-MU for example, because they can’t procure the chips needed for the buck drivers in them. ROT66 gen 2 doesn’t use a buck driver, but still might be affected in some way or another.

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cannga wrote:
Mention Nichia and I could see your eyes light up, rubbing hands together . Thumbs Up Smile
Lol, yessss…

.

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Does anyone know if these is a pocket clip that works with the S21D?

Thanks

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Caleb wrote:
pocket clip
ask Convoy if one of these works
swhs
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cannga wrote:
jon_slider wrote:
I have not seen an R9 of 90+ on an LH351d before it is nominally a 9050 LED, whereas the SST-20, 219b, and E21a are 9080 variants

2. Good catch, R9 for LH351D LED is not 97 (my mistake), but still in the 90’s, 92. The numbers I quoted is from “u/maukka.” Did I read that right? I don’t care so much about the exact number but am curious: how much is the typical variation in CRI among different bins of a LED? And is that what we are seeing here (different R9 numbers)?

The R9 for the LH351D is stated to be 75 in the post by AEDe for a group buy. The measurements by Maukka of the LH351D 4000K are done with a filter which I presume lifts the red and yellows by reducing other frequencies, as he states: “So here’s how amazing the Samsung LH351D triple looks with a Lee Zircon 804 minus green filter”.

If the LH351D was that good without a filter everyone would be using it, and there would be no need for the SST20 4000K, Nichia 219B/219C/519A at 4000K etc. I have the FC11 with 4000K LH351D and it’s definitely not performing as in that review.

I did a test for example comparing the rendition of yellow (for example using a big yellow Stanley fatmax spirit level) between:
1. LEDs of ca. 6000K (not sure exact type, used in an Exposure Strada 1200 bike lamp),
2. ca. 4000K neutral white (XP-G 5B1),
3. 4000K neutral white 90 CRI LH-351D (FC11),
4. 4000K neutral white SST 20 95 CRI (IF25A).

The result is that between each of them there is a clearly visible difference, with an increase of vibrance of the yellow. It looks most washed out with 6000K and most vibrant with the SST20 4000K. This means the yellow bar should be lower with the LH351D 4000K than with the SST20 4000K, and it is (when not using a filter)…

In your picture comparing the LH351D 4000K with the SST20 4000K the tree looks a bit washed out with the LH351D, and in other areas too colours are washed out a bit. So I see issues with rendering of esp. wood/browns there. In my house I have a lot of plywood inside, varnished and natural, and downstairs mahogany window sills with inlaid hardwood plywood, floors everywhere dark wood grain laminate, etc. and since finishing all that, I always get this feeling that everything feels off with the FC11 (LH351D 4000K) whereas everything feels pleasant and natural with the IF25A (SST20 4000K).

I’m not there now but I will try to make some pictures when I get back there.

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swhs wrote:
…. In your picture comparing the LH351D 4000K with the SST20 4000K the tree looks a bit washed out with the LH351D, and in other areas too colours are washed out a bit. So I see issues with rendering of esp. wood/browns there. In my house I have a lot of plywood inside, varnished and natural, and downstairs mahogany window sills with inlaid hardwood plywood, floors everywhere dark wood grain laminate, etc. and since finishing all that, I always get this feeling that everything feels off with the FC11 (LH351D 4000K) whereas everything feels pleasant and natural with the IF25A (SST20 4000K).

Very nice discussion and thanks for the clarification. I doubted Jon but he is right again regading LH351D’s R9 Smile Thumbs Up .

The picture being discussed re. these highly regarded and extremely popular LED’s (NB I did NOT color the text yellow to make SST20 look more yellow Innocent – was just testing which color is easiest to read.)

cannga
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Caleb wrote:
Does anyone know if these is a pocket clip that works with the S21D?

I have these coming. I believe they are the same ones as recommended by someone on page 1 of this thread. All from Convoy store (more reliable) and extremely cheap. I will have 5 Convoy lights so I bought the 5 lot. They are actually at the local post office (unprecedented 7 day shipping from China to US) and I hope to have them some time this weekend if you want to wait.

Clip-on Clip https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002413109298.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li...
Screw-on Clip https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002434411703.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li...
Metal lighted switch https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002389032527.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li...

cannga
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cannga wrote:
Caleb wrote:
Does anyone know if these is a pocket clip that works with the S21D?

I have these coming. I believe they are the same ones as recommended by someone on page 1 of this thread. All from Convoy store (more reliable) and extremely cheap. I will have 5 Convoy lights so I bought the 5 lot. They are actually at the local post office (unprecedented 7 day shipping from China to US) and I hope to have them some time this weekend if you want to wait.

Clip-on Clip https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002413109298.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li...
Screw-on Clip https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002434411703.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li...
Metal lighted switch https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002389032527.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li...

(EDIT 4/17/2022) An admirable 11 days after ordering, the clips are here from China.

Accessories review. All IMHO YMMV

Clip-on Clip https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002413109298.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li... A little too small at 22 mm diameter so I could see a little air gap between clip and light. I would have preferred probably 25 mm. Fits S21D, M21E (after bending clipping arms outward a little). Might fit M21B and M21F but I didn’t try because it’s tight and I didn’t want to scratch the finish. I much prefer the screw on clip (better in every way IMHO), but if this is what you like, I would bend the arms outward a little so that it doesn’t scratch the light’s finish. It’s a little too small.
Screw-on Clip https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002434411703.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li... Perfect for my need. Fits S21D, M21B perfectly, does fit M21F and likely E, but would help if the screws are a little longer for absolute secure attachment. Ok I hope what follows makes sense: For the Convoys with the side switch, M21E and M21F, I prefer to keep the clip at 9 o’clock position (90 degrees to the left of the switch) so that it doesn’t go under my right hand grip. For the M21E the holes are perfectly placed so I use screw-on. For the M21F the holes are not, so I use the clip-on, after I’ve bent the clipping arms outward.
Metal lighted switch https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002389032527.html?spm=a2g0o.order_li... IMHO mandatory Smile for S21D and M21B. For switch color I chose blue because of less current drain vs orange (9.4 mA vs 14 mA). Give a wonderful nice tactile click, night and day better than the rubber version. For me, this metal switch is especially critical for the 12-GROUPS UI used in these lights because in this UI both click (full click) and tap (half press) are important, and the tap is so much easier with the metal switch. The metal switch has a built in half-way stop for the tap’s half press and it makes all the difference IMHO. Install takes 5 minutes, completely plug and play. The most challenging step is to remove the retaining ring which might be a little hard if you don’t have this device https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JNRR0Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_... .

cannga
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I posted this on another thread but thought it would be even more relevant to this thread. Comparison of Convoy 219b and 519a with pictures of the front garden. I like and recommend both lights btw; at $30 a pop they are simply irresistible. Smile A great start for anyone curious about high CRI lights.

It’s interesting to note that without a lightly colored background such as my living room’s light beige wall (versus dark green background of this picture), the magenta tint of 219b is not as easily noticeable. In addition, differences between LED are more subtle. The easiest way for me to tell which LED is which is the flat grey surface of the palm tree. Here the more yellow tint of 519a is more obvious.

Looking at the hot pink geranium flowers, 219b somehow just seems to make the flowers stand out more from the leaves. More depth and 3D, color differences more distinctive – just my subjective opinion so if you don’t see it, I won’t argue :-). It will be interesting to do a crop comparison.

cannga
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Crop of above picture. Shot w/ Canon DSLR in RAW format, WB 5000k, exposure matched as best I could to not favor one LED or another. I have a clear preference but both LED’s are excellent – if you like a warmer tone go for 519a, AFTER you get the 219b Innocent .

Kidding aside, based on my own real life observation (not photography) if you want to see subtle shade of color changes and to see flowers “pop” against leaves etc., the 219b 4500k is unmatched imho. In the Convoy S21D host the bright floody field is an added bonus – at 30 bucks an incredibly compelling value and the best of all the lights I have bought.

PS If you are buying S21D or M21B, be sure to also purchase the rear lighted metal button and the screw on metal clip from Aliexpress Convoy store – both are just a couple bucks each but are mandatory Smile imho.

NeutralFan
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Both LEDs look great, but I agree, the 219B just looks better. But I think that’s due to the negative DUV of the 219Bs vs the close to the BBL of the 519As. I have found that a little rosiness helps a lot with making things look better.

Thanks for posting all these great photos cannga!

I’d rather use my flashlight around the house than turn on the lights.

cannga
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NeutralFan wrote:
Both LEDs look great, but I agree, the 219B just looks better. But I think that’s due to the negative DUV of the 219Bs vs the close to the BBL of the 519As. I have found that a little rosiness helps a lot with making things look better. Thanks for posting all these great photos cannga!

You’re welcome and thanks. It sure is a fun hobby Thumbs Up Smile .

cannga
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I updated my Convoy accessories review above. Posting pic of the beautiful metal switch and clip. The metal switch not only looks so much better than rubber switch, but more importantly functionally it also makes using the 12 Groups UI easier (see explanation above). The click feels better and makes a nice click sound. And… it actually could still tail stand, just don’t put it next to your Faberge egg.

LucasRunner
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This review was incredible!

 

I just popped my "cri cherry" with my first light in years, just bought (my dad) a 4500K 519a S2 and it blew my mind, everyone at home was somewhat puzzled by how different things looked under this "small light". They kept looking at things under our old SSC-P7 light and switching to the S2, especially at the wooden floorboards. Their reaction was kinda funny because they know nothing about flahslights, leds, cri or even color ccts. Shortly after I went to purchase an S21d with the 519a's and they where out of stock, perhaps getting a 4500K and another 2700/3000K one since i liked it alot.

I'm surprised to know the S21d on 219's to be so bright. I would still keep on the 519a given the extra brightness and efficiency being a factor for me but you made me consider just getting everying in front of me now ahaha. They only thing i wished my 519a S2 did was to run on the "100%" for longer and cooler. The S21d may get me that extra brightness under manageable and runtimes.

I was wondering a few things:

  • light-up switches, how do they work? in which instances do they keep on? on the pics they seem to get permanently on? (noob question)
  • A friend on Reddit told me the S21d might work with Simon's "5a 6V boost driver". Is ordering/modding that possible?
cannga
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LucasRunner wrote:

I was wondering a few things:

  • light-up switches, how do they work? in which instances do they keep on? on the pics they seem to get permanently on? (noob question)
  • A friend on Reddit told me the S21d might work with Simon’s “5a 6V boost driver”. Is ordering/modding that possible?

Sure yes me too only recently “popping the CRI cherry” Sick & thanks. I am new to this hobby and am actually learning and testing as I’m posting, so questions like yours are helpful. The blue light stays on when light is off, and turns off when the light is turned on. This helps to find the flashlight in the dark, besides looking so much prettier.

But for me the important function of the metal switch is it’s a godsend for the 12 steps because it makes “tap” (the half press) and “click” (full press) more distinct and so much easier to engage IMHO. Older fingers tend to become more difficult, maybe a little painful, to move at acute angles, so for your dad if he’s old it will be a great help. Also IMHO, if I were to give this light to a friend or relative, I would be tempted to set it to the step number 12 (the last one) to make it simple. Just on and off to Turbo level.

BTW the 12 Steps UI is not my favorite. Maybe someone could tell me a better way but especially for battery check, it’s torture. J/K but really, say you are at 35%, to go through the different levels then strobe and biking to check battery, then SOS and another round of level to back to where you are is not the best way. And then you get 1 to 5 flashes instead of actual voltage like with Anduril. At least Simon’s newer lights have abandoned this weakness by using a different UI. These lights (the M21x models with GT-FC40) use 5 clicks to see actual battery level, similar to Anduril 2 Advanced.

Sorry I don’t know much about drivers to comment. Any expert here feel free to jump in. All my notes are on lights bought from Aliexpress Convoy store, unmodded. I have this vague impression that Convoy is more aggressive with keeping brightness up (less severe step-down) vs my Olight M2R Pro Warrior for example, but without instrumented testing, I can’t be sure.

LucasRunner
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Thank you for your detailed review and replies, it's quite helpfull, especially with your quality pictures. They are an awesome illustration of how the tint difference appears at real use. 

 

cannga
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You’re welcome & thanks.

This next observation is only for the hard-core pixel peepers among us Smile , in case you missed it the first time around. In real use, I’ve noticed Nichia 519a always seems to be brighter than 219b. From the 2 pictures below, it appears it’s not the central area of 519a that’s brighter, but it’s the periphery, the “spill” area (in parenthesis because these S21D’s are very floody and don’t really have hotspot and spill per se).

I don’t understand why this is so since the optics are the same. Both are domed LED of the same size no? Anyone would like to explain?

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The die sizes (area of light-emitting surface) are different. The 219B die is a bit over 2mm^2, while the 519A die is around 4mm^2. With a larger die, you can expect a greater percentage of the output to become "spill" rather than "throw".

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