Tint, Binning, and CRI Explained (For XM-L LEDs)

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TexasLumens
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WOW! Great info Scaru!!! THANKS!!!! That is the best I have ever seen the information laid out!!!!

Dan.

Texas Lumens Website… http://www.texaslumens.com

WE LIVE IN THE LAND OF THE FREE ONLY BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE!

rojos
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scaru wrote:

mattthemuppet wrote:
nice run through scaru. Only niggle is that CW Cree LEDs are generally 65CRI, although the newer XM-L2 CW seem to be 70CRI. NW and warmer are 75CRI, one reason so many people like them over CW :)

Just changed it! Thanks. Smile

Not quite.  CW XML typical CRI is 65.  Typical CRI for CW XPE, XPG, XRE, Rebel, and most other current gen 3.45mm square emitters is between 70 and 75.  Typical CRI for NW and WW emitters depends a lot on the specific model of emitter.  For NW, it ranges from 70 to 80 depending on the type of emitter (not including "high CRI" emitters),  and for WW, it ranges from 75-85 (also not including "high CRI" emitters).  

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Nice thread along with your other comparison thread. 

 

Question - XM-L led's include a high CRI bin.    I dont see this or anything about it..Sure, its for sale somewhere. I think its an S2 bin although i may be wrong in regards to the bin

 


scaru
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DarkSide wrote:
Nice thread along with your other comparison thread. Question - XM-L led's include a high CRI bin.    I dont see this or anything about it..Sure, its for sale somewhere. I think its an S2 bin although i may be wrong in regards to the bin
 
Yes, to find that type of LED you need the model number. This is listed in the datasheet. Then simply take the model number and google it. (In this case: 
XMLAWT-00-0000-000US60E7)
 
Then you come up with the Mouser link. 
 
I think I have responded to all of the questions/comments/errors in my post. If I missed any or you find any more just tell me. 
kronological
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Lots of info and nicely explained. I will probably have to come back to it later after I can wrap my head around all this a little bit better.

No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.

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mattthemuppet
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rojos wrote:
Not quite.  CW XML typical CRI is 65.  Typical CRI for CW XPE, XPG, XRE, Rebel, and most other current gen 3.45mm square emitters is between 70 and 75.  Typical CRI for NW and WW emitters depends a lot on the specific model of emitter.  For NW, it ranges from 70 to 80 depending on the type of emitter (not including “high CRI” emitters),  and for WW, it ranges from 75-85 (also not including “high CRI” emitters).  

good point! I’ve spent most of my time poring over XM-L datasheets and I’m much less familiar with the other types Smile

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Thank you scaru.

I am a newbie and have been reading this forum for a while trying to get myself educated. Your work on the XM-L LEDs has been most helpful for my to get a little better understanding of some of the technical aspects of these magic flashlights that I am so intrigued with.

I have purchased a few different lights and am now at the point where I want to build my first one. With this info I will be able to settle on at least one element of the new build.

scaru
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Mulie wrote:
Thank you scaru. I am a newbie and have been reading this forum for a while trying to get myself educated. Your work on the XM-L LEDs has been most helpful for my to get a little better understanding of some of the technical aspects of these magic flashlights that I am so intrigued with. I have purchased a few different lights and am now at the point where I want to build my first one. With this info I will be able to settle on at least one element of the new build.

Glad I could help! If you have any other questions just post! Smile

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I would not speak of the 5C1 or 5B3 as they were 1A or 1C, writing them like 5C and 5B. Starting with the number 5, CREE gets more "precise" with the  tint that is offered. It's not like 1C which has a bigger quadrangle and it's not as precise as those.

CREE does not consider "2" tints to be Neutral White, they are still Cool White. Number "5" is considered Neutral White by CREE, not Warm White.

XM-L bins can go lower that T, like S6 is the lowest mentioned by CREE. Also I have not seen T1 anywhere mentioned by CREE so far. For example we have XP-G R5 then S2, XM-L S6 then T2, XM-L T6 then U2. Bot no S1, T1 and U1.

 

 

scaru
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Hikelite wrote:
I would not speak of the 5C1 or 5B3 as they were 1A or 1C, writing them like 5C and 5B. Starting with the number 5, CREE gets more "precise" with the  tint that is offered. It's not like 1C which has a bigger quadrangle and it's not as precise as those.

This may be true, but I see no reason the 5 bins have to be more precise than the 1A bins. If more people say I should change it then I will. Smile

Hikelite wrote:
CREE does not consider "2" tints to be Neutral White, they are still Cool White. Number "5" is considered Neutral White by CREE, not Warm White.
 

Good point, I will add that 2 is CW, however if you have ever seen a 5 it is quite warm... So do you guys think it should be based strictly off the spec sheet or reality?

Hikelite wrote:
XM-L bins can go lower that T, like S6 is the lowest mentioned by CREE. Also I have not seen T1 anywhere mentioned by CREE so far. For example we have XP-G R5 then S2, XM-L S6 then T2, XM-L T6 then U2. Bot no S1, T1 and U1.
Just checked on the sheet and you're right. I'm changing that now. I don't think the S bins need to be added because, well have you ever seen a S bin XM-L for sale? Silly The only place they are found is Mouser or Digikey, a place that also would have the same tint in a T bin. 
Hikelite
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1C is actually 1C0. And 5B cannot be 5B0. If you buy 1C it can be greener or yellower, even so it's generally lemon-ish. But just because 5B is simply warmer that does not mean the second number should be ignored. Even so, almost all 5B are the same, while not all 1C are the same.

Regrading S6

If you take a closer look at CREE datasheets you can actually see, there are also S2 S3 S4 S5 and S6. Actually CREE shows S4 S5 S6 as being the High CRI (85 & 90) of the new XM-L2. I do not see a point in ignoring this fact.

scaru
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Hikelite wrote:

1C is actually 1C0. And 5B cannot be 5B0. If you buy 1C it can be greener or yellower, even so it's generally lemon-ish. But just because 5B is simply warmer that does not mean the second number should be ignored. Even so, almost all 5B are the same, while not all 1C are the same.

Regrading S6

If you take a closer look at CREE datasheets you can actually see, there are also S2 S3 S4 S5 and S6. Actually CREE shows S4 S5 S6 as being the High CRI (85 & 90) of the new XM-L2. I do not see a point in ignoring this fact.

Ok, I will add that info later today. 

scaru
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Ok, I added S4, S5, and S6 to it. 

"For XM-Ls the brightness bins range from S4 (which is the least efficient) to U3 which is the most efficient. The order is S4, S5, S6, T2, T3, T4, T5, T6, U2, then U3. Most lights are a T6 bin unless otherwise specified."

There is not a S3 as that is not one of the bins available for XM-Ls if you consult the datasheet. 

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/...

Hikelite
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Yes, the S2 and S3 are only present for the new XM-L2 http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/...

Hikelite
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You could mention that "5" is specified as being Neutral White in CREE datasheets.

Nichia for example says White and WarmWhite for the 219 series. For them some Neutral Whites (5000K) are simply Whites, and below that they are all Warm Whites.

scaru
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Hikelite wrote:

You could mention that "5" is specified as being Neutral White in CREE datasheets.

Nichia for example says White and WarmWhite for the 219 series. For them some Neutral Whites (5000K) are simply Whites, and below that they are all Warm Whites.

Ok, I added this. 

"Note: Going off the the Cree datasheets 5 is NW, but I find it to be much wamer than neutral."

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Hikelite wrote:

I would not speak of the 5C1 or 5B3 as they were 1A or 1C, writing them like 5C and 5B. Starting with the number 5, CREE gets more “precise” with the  tint that is offered. It’s not like 1C which has a bigger quadrangle and it’s not as precise as those.



You’re quite right!
It makes very good sense of Cree to subdivide the bin boxes at the lower Kelvin temperatures.
The perception of the color shift between two temperatures is not proportional to the Kelvin temperature but to the reciprocal temperature. See the MIRED scale here.
So perceptionwise the 1A box is quite small and the 5C1 box is quite big.
Tom E
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Scaru (or anyone else that knows) - I've been trying to figure this out, but simply can't do it:

From a CREE part #, can you tell if it's exactly 1A, 1C, 3A, 3C, etc.? The part #'s in question are XM-L2's:

XMLBWT-00-0000-0000U20E1, XMLBWT-02-0000-000LT60E3.

What I can tell:

XMLBWT-00-0000-0000U20E1 - 6500K, 65 CRI (on mouser.com)

XMLBWT-02-0000-000LT60E3 - 5000K, 75 CRI (on mouser.com)

 The E1 and E3 are kits #'s, where E1 includes 1A, 1B, 1C and 1D, and E3 includes 3A, 3B, 3C and 3D (all from the CREE data sheet: CREE Xlamp Xm-l LEDS). So if the kit #'s can't point you to the exact tint, what would? Or do you simply have to take your chances?

Ohh! Forgot to mention: Thank You scaru!! This post is very informative!!

 

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Tom E wrote:

Scaru (or anyone else that knows) - I've been trying to figure this out, but simply can't do it:

From a CREE part #, can you tell if it's exactly 1A, 1C, 3A, 3C, etc.? The part #'s in question are XM-L2's:

XMLBWT-00-0000-0000U20E1, XMLBWT-02-0000-000LT60E3.

What I can tell:

XMLBWT-00-0000-0000U20E1 - 6500K, 65 CRI (on mouser.com)

XMLBWT-02-0000-000LT60E3 - 5000K, 75 CRI (on mouser.com)

 The E1 and E3 are kits #'s, where E1 includes 1A, 1B, 1C and 1D, and E3 includes 3A, 3B, 3C and 3D (all from the CREE data sheet: CREE Xlamp Xm-l LEDS). So if the kit #'s can't point you to the exact tint, what would? Or do you simply have to take your chances? 

I think those are "order codes" and you might need the "bin codes".  Page 2 of the XML Binning & Labeling guide shows the difference. 

To see an example of a Cree "bin code" in real life, check out the package in this photo.

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rojos wrote:

I think those are "order codes" and you might need the "bin codes".  Page 2 of the XML Binning & Labeling guide shows the difference. 

To see an example of a Cree "bin code" in real life, check out the package in this photo.

Ok, yes i saw those too but that info doesn't seem to be provided by Mouser. Those order codes are called the manufacturer part # by Mouser, so, still unknown what you are ordering?

 

scaru
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Tom E wrote:

rojos wrote:

I think those are "order codes" and you might need the "bin codes".  Page 2 of the XML Binning & Labeling guide shows the difference. 

To see an example of a Cree "bin code" in real life, check out the package in this photo.

Ok, yes i saw those too but that info doesn't seem to be provided by Mouser. Those order codes are called the manufacturer part # by Mouser, so, still unknown what you are ordering?

Sadly, I think that is true. One can get a general idea from the bin, but nothing conclusive. E.g. it is a U2 you know it is CW. 

scaru
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rojos wrote:

Tom E wrote:

Ok, yes i saw those too but that info doesn't seem to be provided by Mouser. Those order codes are called the manufacturer part # by Mouser, so, still unknown what you are ordering?

 Have you tried emailing them and asking for the bin codes?

That could be worth a shot. 

Turns out he deleted the comment after I hit the quote button. Wink

rojos
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Lol Scaru, I think that post of mine was up for all of 30 seconds.  

Here is my revised response:

Tom E wrote:

Ok, yes i saw those too but that info doesn't seem to be provided by Mouser. Those order codes are called the manufacturer part # by Mouser, so, still unknown what you are ordering?

Some sellers know the bin code and will tell you if you ask.  If the sales rep doesn't have that info handy, someone in the warehouse should know.  If they sell individual stars, the bin code is usually printed on the back of the star.  If they sell by the reel, the bin code is usually printed on the reel.  

Having said that, I've never tried calling Mouser, so I don't know if that's something they would do.  Same goes for Digikey. 

scaru
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rojos wrote:

Lol Scaru, I think that post of mine was up for all of 30 seconds.  

Sorry. Silly

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 I got 3 of the XM-L2 T6's, installed one today in a C8 pill - not too bad, similar to a 3C tint. But definitely would prefer the U2's, and now the U2's are showing in stock and the T6's are out of stock. The XML2 T6 seems to work ok, even though I originally put it in backwards - duhh, wish it was brighter though. Wonder if I did some damage - in theory I should be getting 3.77A but measuring only 3.6A. The U3 1C still seems to be brighter on a simple ceiling bounce test - the U3 1C is 3.8A bu design and measures 3.8A exactly. So, I should order a few XML2 U2's but for $7.37 plus shipping, not a great deal. I'm thinkin I may destroy some of the stars when removing them, so may need some blank stars but can't locate any, not even aluminum, forget about copper...

  Hhhmmm, may be off topic here with that info.... Still Mouser and Digikey are the two main sources to get the CREE LEDs bare, and you can't tell what tint you are buying? Weird...

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Tom E wrote:

Hhhmmm, may be off topic here with that info.... Still Mouser and Digikey are the two main sources to get the CREE LEDs bare, and you can't tell what tint you are buying? Weird...

They list the tint - ie 3000K, 4000K, 5000K.  Just not the tint bin - ie 7A vs 7B, 5A vs 5C, 3D vs 3C, etc.

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My limited general understanding of this subject is that daylight is broad spectrum light but LEDs are binned based on the dominant wavelength and also has other peaks as well as missing wavelengths. Does hi-cri mean that the led has a better broad spectrum output(fewer gaps) with the penalty being lower overall output?

Thanks! Smile

scaru
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citamul1 wrote:
My limited general understanding of this subject is that daylight is broad spectrum light but LEDs are binned based on the dominant wavelength and also has other peaks as well as missing wavelengths. Does hi-cri mean that the led has a better broad spectrum output(fewer gaps) with the penalty being lower overall output? Thanks! :)

Yes, it contains a much broader spectrum. If you look at the spectrum of the Nichia 219 (H1) it is much broader than the one of a XP-G. (See Below)

As you can tell, the Nichia 219 is superior in that way. Also one can see why the 2600k XP-G is higher CRI than the 5000k XP-G. 

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talking to Craig Shih from Illumination Supply about it and he said it’s just a roll of the die which tint you’ll get within a given kit no. One of the downsides of ordering bare LEDs from Mouser/ Digikey. Still, from what I’ve heard, all of the 3* tints are pretty nice.

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Great information here! Thanks a lot for compiling and sharing it. Sticky’d.

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