Texas_Ace MT09R Modding thread, 20k+ lumens, 80CRI, can start fires? Yes please.

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JHBUDGETLIGHT
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Texas_Ace wrote:
The only thing that would change is if it had a 4S carrier setup like the MT07 I am working on, it can still be done but there would be extra labor involved.

Hi TA,
Can I ask if that is the original MT07 Buffalo (not the smaller MT07s) that you are working on? If so could you provide some before and after measurement or observational comparison comments if not too late. I have one of these original MT07 as well and agree that the earlier MT07 and MT03 seems to be built a notch more robust than the MT09R but performance is far below. I’m interested in modding it but would be interested in how much better the results are. Mine is also the 4S variant so very interested in your comments with this build. Are you using your MT09R driver in the MT07?

Thank you

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JHBUDGETLIGHT wrote:
Texas_Ace wrote:
The only thing that would change is if it had a 4S carrier setup like the MT07 I am working on, it can still be done but there would be extra labor involved.

Hi TA,
Can I ask if that is the original MT07 Buffalo (not the smaller MT07s) that you are working on? If so could you provide some before and after measurement or observational comparison comments if not too late. I have one of these original MT07 as well and agree that the earlier MT07 and MT03 seems to be built a notch more robust than the MT09R but performance is far below. I’m interested in modding it but would be interested in how much better the results are. Mine is also the 4S variant so very interested in your comments with this build. Are you using your MT09R driver in the MT07?

Thank you

It is the newer MT07S in this case although even with the XHP70.2 LED it sis was only doing ~4700 lumens in stock form.

I will be using the MT09R driver in the MT07S as well and based on results with the Convoy L6 I expect around 8500+ lumens. Possibly 9k+

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I just went live with an interest list for my Lumen tubes / Spheres as well in this thread:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60100

Spread the word, I don’t think I will be doing another batch of them as I don’t think there will be enough demand.

I am also not sure if I will be able to get more of these exact diffusing sheets which just happens to work almost perfectly when stacked in just the right way.

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Ok, starting on SVK89’s MT03’s. A stock measurement with the NW emitters had it making 13k lumens.

I just finished the first silver one with 4000k 80cri emitters and it is now doing 21k lumens.

I really like the MT03’s, they are built well and while they are floody they are a good kind of floody. That said the MT09R has a more general use beam.

I might toss a TA driver on the next MT03 with the stock emitters to see what they do.

SKV89
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Newlumen wrote:
Just want to say haikelite mt09rTA xhp70.2 and xhp35 are some of my favorite lights..

999247_F6-425_F-4_EB1-_B917-8_F5_C1_E45_E2_D2

That’s a nice collection. Those are also the lights I’m most interested in.

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Texas_Ace wrote:
Ok, starting on SVK89’s MT03’s. A stock measurement with the NW emitters had it making 13k lumens.

I just finished the first silver one with 4000k 80cri emitters and it is now doing 21k lumens.

It seems the MT03 makes just a tad bit lower lumens than the MT09R. Your MT03 measurements have been 21k so far while the MT09R are mostly 22-23k.

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SKV89 wrote:
Texas_Ace wrote:
Ok, starting on SVK89’s MT03’s. A stock measurement with the NW emitters had it making 13k lumens.

I just finished the first silver one with 4000k 80cri emitters and it is now doing 21k lumens.


It seems the MT03 makes just a tad bit lower lumens than the MT09R. Your MT03 measurements have been 21k so far while the MT09R are mostly 22-23k.

Yeah, I noticed that as well, some of that can be explained but the less then perfect seal I get on the mt03 vs the mt09. Although the last few lights seem a tab lower in general.

These are all off the last shipment of LED’s, it is possible these came from a different reel and are just getting slightly lower numbers. The first lights used the leftover LED’s I had ordered a few months ago.

When pushing lights to the limit like this with FET drivers I have found even very minor differences in forward voltage and die bin are amplified and it is rare to get 2 lights with exactly the same output even if the mods are the same. Even how the retaining ring is tightened can make a difference.

I am working on the next light now, we will see what it does…

Also, I was thinking and I think the only light to hit 23k was one with P2 bin emitters, I don’t remember an 80cri 4000k hitting 23k but I could be wrong, too many of them to remember at this point lol.

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SKV89 wrote:
Newlumen wrote:
Just want to say haikelite mt09rTA xhp70.2 and xhp35 are some of my favorite lights..

999247_F6-425_F-4_EB1-_B917-8_F5_C1_E45_E2_D2

That’s a nice collection. Those are also the lights I’m most interested in.

Yea. I like big high lumen thrower light. Those are tn40s quad xhp35, x65 quad xhp35, k70, tn42 oslon…

SKV89
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Texas_Ace wrote:
Also, I was thinking and I think the only light to hit 23k was one with P2 bin emitters, I don’t remember an 80cri 4000k hitting 23k but I could be wrong, too many of them to remember at this point lol.

Actually the first few ones that hit 23k were with the 80cri 4000k looking at the old posts.

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SKV89 wrote:
Texas_Ace wrote:
Also, I was thinking and I think the only light to hit 23k was one with P2 bin emitters, I don’t remember an 80cri 4000k hitting 23k but I could be wrong, too many of them to remember at this point lol.

Actually the first few ones that hit 23k were with the 80cri 4000k looking at the old posts.

Hmm, that is quite possible. Those were from my old stash of LED’s, it is quite possible they were from another reel and were slightly higher binned.

SKV89
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But aren’t these all M4 bins? Thought you can’t source anything over M4 for 4000k 80CRI?

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Alright guys. I will compare another ceiling bounce test tonight. Acebeam x45 quad xhp70.2 25000 lumen vs haikelite mt09rTA triple xhp 70.2 ( 22k-24k ). I will post number tonight.

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SKV89 wrote:
But aren’t these all M4 bins? Thought you can’t source anything over M4 for 4000k 80CRI?

Yes but each bin from Cree has a 7% +/- tolerance range in both output and forward voltage. This is why the results can vary so much light to light and LED to LED.

I just got the second MT03 finished and it is doing a bit better, a bit at ~21.5k lumens.

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TSO wrote:
So…could somebody explain the nomenclature and the hierarchy for the different emitter “bins” and grades? That would be AWESOME for this newbie. I understand color temperature ratings (4000k, 5700k, etc.) and CRI ratings. Its the “p2”, “m4”, etc. that I can’t find info on. Thanks!

As you know the color temp is just the color of the light from the LED. Although it gets more complicated then that as you can have many differnt hues toa given tint (green, red, yellow, blue ect) it is still pretty basic.

CRI is how close to sunlight the light produces color. most LED’s are 70cri or less and colors look flat and dead.

80cri is 80% of the sun and is what you generally see in LED and florescent household lighting. It is a good mix of output and color.

90CRI is 90% of the sun and produces nicer colors at the cost of lumens.

The flux bins are simply how bright and efficient the LED is.

In the case of the XHP70.2 the P2 is the highest output bin, It then goes N4 – N2 – M4- M2 – ect.

Each bin is around 7% brighter/dimmer IIRC and Cree has a 7% tolerance for each bin as well (convenient wouldn’t you say).

So what this means is that some LED’s will simply be brighter then others and vice versa and there is no way to know until you try them.

You also have to factor in forward voltage. For example the 80cri LED’s have a much lower forward voltage that helps them make the big lumens they do even though they are a lower bin.

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Newlumen wrote:
Alright guys. I will compare another ceiling bounce test tonight. Acebeam x45 quad xhp70.2 25000 lumen vs haikelite mt09rTA triple xhp 70.2 ( 22k-24k ). I will post number tonight.

I look forward to the results!

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TSO wrote:
So…could somebody explain the nomenclature and the hierarchy for the different emitter “bins” and grades?
That would be AWESOME for this newbie.
I understand color temperature ratings (4000k, 5700k, etc.) and CRI ratings. Its the “p2”, “m4”, etc. that I can’t find info on.
Thanks!

Check out this link and download the data sheet. http://www.cree.com/led-components/products/xlamp-leds-arrays/xlamp-xhp70-2
You will start to see the patterns. Every led is tested with a set voltage and current and Cree reads the color data and brightness. It is then divided up into several groups to be sold.

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

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Oh, I also wanted to let everyone know that I requested Terry hold off on sending me the MT09R’s he is sending to me until Monday. I will not have time to work on them until middle of next week anyways and this gives everyone a little more time to jump on board before he ships them to me.

The more we can keep things in larger orders then a bunch of small ones the simpler it is for all of us.

He has the lights now, I just simply won’t have time to work on them as the lights I have on hand now will take all my spare time until this weekend I am sure and early next week I will be busy with other stuff.

Speaking of which, 1 or 2 more packages showed up today but I have not opened them up yet to see whos they are.

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Ok. I got it. I am happy with the result. Mt09rTA did great.

E1_B5169_B-_FC5_F-4_EB4-86_BB-18819142_BD4_F

22464174-1_E5_F-44_D1-90_C1-_B16765265_A15
pic upload

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Texas_Ace wrote:
Oh, I also wanted to let everyone know that I requested Dale hold off on sending me the MT09R’s he is sending to me until Monday. I will not have time to work on them until middle of next week anyways and this gives everyone a little more time to jump on board before he ships them to me.

The more we can keep things in larger orders then a bunch of small ones the simpler it is for all of us.

He has the lights now, I just simply won’t have time to work on them as the lights I have on hand now will take all my spare time until this weekend I am sure and early next week I will be busy with other stuff.

Speaking of which, 1 or 2 more packages showed up today but I have not opened them up yet to see whos they are.

Sent mine Fed Ex this morning, they said it would get there Friday morning Smile Can’t wait!

Maybe Dale, in holding off on shipping more lights, will have time to ship my charger that I bought.
Back in January.

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@Texas Ace, if the package you received is Blue MT09R XHP 70.2, that should be mine

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

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Texas_Ace wrote:

Each bin is around 7% brighter/dimmer IIRC and Cree has a 7% tolerance for each bin as well (convenient wouldn’t you say).

This is not convenient at all!
Lol.

So an N2 bin has 7% less output than an N4 bin “generally speaking”. You would think each bin would have a tolerance of + or – 3.5%, but it doesn’t. It’s + or – 7% or 14% total! Sick

Here are common 70.2 bins and their lumen range at 2.1A, 6v and 85°C.

K4 1290 1380
M2 1380 1485
M4 1485 1590
N2 1590 1710
N4 1710 1830
P2 1830 1965

With such a large tolerance you can see where an N2 might fit in the range of a M4 or N4. It’s a wide tolerance of 14%.

So an N2 could be anywhere from 1540 to 1760. Basically anywhere from its normal range to the upper half of the bin below it to the lower half of the bin above it.

For example, from 20,000 lumen to 23,000 lumen is 15%. So you could see such a large swing in output from a single bin. (assuming all 3 emitters in one light were on the bottom end of the tolerance and the other 3 were at the top end of the tolerance. This is pretty rare, though. It’s usually in the middle somewhere)

Texas_Ace wrote:

You also have to factor in forward voltage. For example the 80cri LED’s have a much lower forward voltage that helps them make the big lumens they do even though they are a lower bin.

It is only when using FET drivers that forward voltage has a big effect. With most factory drivers the forward voltage has little to no effect at all. I don’t think the 80cri has a higher efficiency, either. It gets its higher output from drawing higher amps which produces more heat and drains the batteries faster. Correct me if I’m wrong TA. The forward voltage stuff is a bit hard for me to understand.

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

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TSO wrote:
Texas_Ace wrote:
Oh, I also wanted to let everyone know that I requested Dale hold off on sending me the MT09R’s he is sending to me until Monday. I will not have time to work on them until middle of next week anyways and this gives everyone a little more time to jump on board before he ships them to me.

The more we can keep things in larger orders then a bunch of small ones the simpler it is for all of us.

He has the lights now, I just simply won’t have time to work on them as the lights I have on hand now will take all my spare time until this weekend I am sure and early next week I will be busy with other stuff.

Speaking of which, 1 or 2 more packages showed up today but I have not opened them up yet to see whos they are.

Sent mine Fed Ex this morning, they said it would get there Friday morning Smile Can’t wait!

Maybe Dale, in holding off on shipping more lights, will have time to ship my charger that I bought.
Back in January.

I made a mistake, I meant to say Terry not Dale lol.

I will watch for your light, I know I have several showing up in the next few days, gonna try to knock them out by this weekend before I start on another project that will take my time for a few days.

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BlueSwordM wrote:
@Texas Ace, if the package you received is Blue MT09R XHP 70.2, that should be mine

Very possible, I will go through the mail after I finish SVK89’s last MT03. I have had his lights long enough and want to get them shipped out tomorrow.

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JasonWW wrote:
Texas_Ace wrote:
You also have to factor in forward voltage. For example the 80cri LED’s have a much lower forward voltage that helps them make the big lumens they do even though they are a lower bin.
It is only when using FET drivers that forward voltage has a big effect. With most factory drivers the forward voltage has little to no effect at all. I don’t think the 80cri has a higher efficiency, either. It gets its higher output from drawing higher amps which produces more heat and drains the batteries faster. Correct me if I’m wrong TA. The forward voltage stuff is a bit hard for me to understand.

Yes, that is more or less correct, there are some highly technical things that can effect it but not enough to matter in 98% of situations.

Higher CRI emitters generally have lower forward voltages in order to keep efficiency up to par. In this case it can handle the extra power so that helps a lot but yes, it will get hotter then the same light built with P2 emitters.

They both get hot so fast I doubt most would notice the difference though lol.

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Newlumen wrote:
Ok. I got it. I am happy with the result. Mt09rTA did great.

E1_B5169_B-_FC5_F-4_EB4-86_BB-18819142_BD4_F

22464174-1_E5_F-44_D1-90_C1-_B16765265_A15
pic upload

Great info thanks!
Of the three, which one can use turbo the longest? I’m suspecting the x45 due to the largest head? And which one has the most throw….mt09?

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Ok… if I want to order and modded where do I start? Do I pm someone or go ahead to the site and order it then pm? and can you do some night shot comparison of different lights and the modded MT09?
I might just get this one and called it the final flashlight I’m going to buy… until I see a 50k lumen fairly compact handheld cannon (yes I set the numbers high so I don’t go and buy another new light (with good UI/CRI) that’s capable of doing 22.1k lumen lol)

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Pretty sure my version 1 MT03 arrived at your place today. You are on a MT03 roll… Thumbs Up
Thanks. Can’t wait to see the transformation.
Keepitsharp

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Ok, I just got SVK89’s final MT03 modded, this one is the best of the bunch, it is doing just under 23k lumens also with the 4000k 80cri LED’s.

Goes to show how the LED lottery can work, 3 lights with the exact same work, same driver and the LED’s are all from right next to each other on the reel yet a range from 21k to 23k lumens. Just no way to predict it.

I will get SVK’s lights packed up and shipped tomorrow.

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yuhsin91123 wrote:
Ok… if I want to order and modded where do I start? Do I pm someone or go ahead to the site and order it then pm? and can you do some night shot comparison of different lights and the modded MT09? I might just get this one and called it the final flashlight I’m going to buy… until I see a 50k lumen fairly compact handheld cannon (yes I set the numbers high so I don’t go and buy another new light (with good UI/CRI) that’s capable of doing 22.1k lumen lol)

You can order the light from Terry and then just tell him you want it sent to me.

Then PM me and we can figure out exactly what you want and get the order in motion.

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Keepitsharp wrote:
Pretty sure my version 1 MT03 arrived at your place today. You are on a MT03 roll… Thumbs Up Thanks. Can’t wait to see the transformation. Keepitsharp

Very possible, I have one more light I need to finish and I will dig into the new stuff.

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