21700 D4K is available for pre-order

5602 posts / 0 new
Last post
kokosnh
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 10 min ago
Joined: 07/02/2021 - 06:27
Posts: 237
Location: Polska

Hank Wang wrote:
thefreeman wrote:
Jensen wrote:
I got my cyan D1 with 2700K B35AM yesterday and really like it but I think there is a problem with the drivers, or just mine isn't functioning correctly. The LED smokes when at the highest level of the ramp. I had to take off the bezel/lens and clean the MCPCB and LED with alcohol and cotton swabs in case there was some flux getting hot and smoking, but even with it really clean, the LED still smokes. Setting the top of the ramp at 10 levels below max and disabling turbo seems to have "fixed" this but I really hope I didn't damage the LED somehow. I remember reading about Convoy lights having this same problem because of the B35AM being driven too hard so I hope it can be fixed with something simple like new firmware.
This seems to be the first report of such problem on Emisar-Noctigon lights, the MCPCB used by Hank has clearly better dielectric thermal resistance than Convoy’s since it is driven at 3.6A (IIRC hand) and there hasn’t been any problems before yours, whereas Convoy had issues at 3A. Perhaps it is a bad reflow. 
I think this is the common issue for the B35AM LED itself, the MCPCB is the best that we can produce, and there is no soldering issue whatever. The LED will not die at high current (3.6A), but the smoke will come out on turbo mode. We plan to reduce the current of the B35AM LED, this is the only way to prevent the smoke, only that the output will be reduced as well unfortunately.


Well just received My D1 mini B35AM 4000K (cold white aux), and I can confirm that it's smoking on turbo. But to be honest it doesn't bothering me at all. It even look nice, as the smoke swirls inside the reflector.
There's a visible tint shift, from low to high mode. opple measured around 250K shift, from around 3800K on low to around 4050K on high. opple isn't very accurate, so I average it measurements (take it with a grain of salt).

Turbo  - 5.6A
Moon  - 7030µA
Aux off  - 67µA
Aux on Low  -  76µA
Aux on High  - 260µA
it jumps +200µA every 8 seconds or so for brif moment, from my understanding, that's just the driver waking up to check the voltage.




And well, to be honest, it's not so smaller than my 21700 flashlights... 
the beam is quite nice, but the spill diameter is rather tight compared to my other flashlights.

Valynor
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 56 min ago
Joined: 07/13/2019 - 17:13
Posts: 151
Location: Germany

kokosnh wrote:

Well just received My D1 mini B35AM 4000K (cold white aux), and I can confirm that it's smoking on turbo. But to be honest it doesn't bothering me at all. It even look nice, as the smoke swirls inside the reflector.

 

To be honest I think you should bother for these two reasons:

-something is vaporising from the LED and it's most likely not good for the LED in the long term

-the smoke will settle on the reflector and lens and reduce brightness/throw

 

 

kokosnh
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 10 min ago
Joined: 07/02/2021 - 06:27
Posts: 237
Location: Polska

Valynor wrote:
kokosnh wrote:
  Well just received My D1 mini B35AM 4000K (cold white aux), and I can confirm that it's smoking on turbo. But to be honest it doesn't bothering me at all. It even look nice, as the smoke swirls inside the reflector.

To be honest I think you should bother for these two reasons:

-something is vaporising from the LED and it's most likely not good for the LED in the long term

-the smoke will settle on the reflector and lens and reduce brightness/throw



cry
Well, you were right. I think it settle on the reflector, when I had it laying on my desk yesterday, so it settle on half of it for now. The other half of the reflector looks mostly OK. 

Yeah that is not how the reflectors should look like.  Don't Turbo B35AM guys. 



ExtraCat
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 1 min ago
Joined: 10/19/2021 - 05:38
Posts: 28
Location: United States
kokosnh wrote:

Valynor wrote:
kokosnh wrote:
  Well just received My D1 mini B35AM 4000K (cold white aux), and I can confirm that it’s smoking on turbo. But to be honest it doesn’t bothering me at all. It even look nice, as the smoke swirls inside the reflector.

To be honest I think you should bother for these two reasons:

-something is vaporising from the LED and it’s most likely not good for the LED in the long term

-the smoke will settle on the reflector and lens and reduce brightness/throw



cry
Well, you were right. I think it settle on the reflector, when I had it laying on my desk yesterday, so it settle on half of it for now. The other half of the reflector looks mostly OK. 

Yeah that is not how the reflectors should look like.  Don’t Turbo B35AM guys. 



Does it smoke at top of default ramp too or just during turbo?
…I have a D1 b35am in the mail right now :S

kokosnh
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 10 min ago
Joined: 07/02/2021 - 06:27
Posts: 237
Location: Polska

ExtraCat wrote:
Does it smoke at top of default ramp too or just during turbo? ...I have a D1 b35am in the mail right now :S

Tested it for 15 minutes... 
It's ok at top of default ramp, no smoke on my unit. So just don't Turbo.  
But do test it and adjust the max ramp, if you have a smoke on yours. 

Ps. I'm starting to look at it, as I look on the FW21 Pro XHP50.2, that can literally desolder itself if you turbo it couples of times...
Turbo is there, but don't use it if you don't have to. 
puglife2
puglife2's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 10/07/2017 - 17:56
Posts: 581

Hi Hank!! I would like to buy a dedomed 2700k 519A brass D1 with a brass OP reflector for a nice golden hue Steve thx in advance

Limsup
Offline
Last seen: 26 min 8 sec ago
Joined: 02/23/2020 - 23:57
Posts: 47

Wow.. I didn’t notice the smoke on the reflector first, but I see it now. I put the photos by kokosnh posted here and put it side by side and marked what I think has been caused by the smoke.

Maybe I should smoke the LED without the reflector first until the smoke stops? Does the smoke stop after a while? My D1 with B35AM is in the mail.

Jensen
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 41 min ago
Joined: 11/13/2018 - 10:49
Posts: 39
Location: Serbia

Limsup wrote:
Wow.. I didn’t notice the smoke on the reflector first, but I see it now. I put the photos by kokosnh posted here and put it side by side and marked what I think has been caused by the smoke.

Maybe I should smoke the LED without the reflector first until the smoke stops? Does the smoke stop after a while? My D1 with B35AM is in the mail.

I think the manufacturers of these aluminum coated reflectors spray some kind of sealant on the inside to prevent the aluminum from oxidizing, and that’s what you see when you turn on the light at a high level. I have seen the same stuff on a Malkoff P60 dropin so I’m pretty sure it’s that.

Also that is the advice Hank gave me to deal with the smoking. I just kept turboing with the lens/bezel/reflector off until the smoke stopped. Set the temperature limit higher than what you actually want so you can be sure it can’t smoke again when you actually use it. I set it to 50C and then keep it at default, 45C, normally. The B35AM didn’t seem to be damaged by this at all.

Kakapo
Kakapo's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 5 days ago
Joined: 01/02/2022 - 02:03
Posts: 60
Location: New Zealand

Can you enable the option to pay using a credit card without logging in with a Paypal account? I’ve been having Paypal account trouble and was unable to make an order.

kokosnh
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 10 min ago
Joined: 07/02/2021 - 06:27
Posts: 237
Location: Polska

Jensen wrote:
I think the manufacturers of these aluminum coated reflectors spray some kind of sealant on the inside to prevent the aluminum from oxidizing, and that's what you see when you turn on the light at a high level. I have seen the same stuff on a Malkoff P60 dropin so I'm pretty sure it's that. Also that is the advice Hank gave me to deal with the smoking. I just kept turboing with the lens/bezel/reflector off until the smoke stopped. Set the temperature limit higher than what you actually want so you can be sure it can't smoke again when you actually use it. I set it to 50C and then keep it at default, 45C, normally. The B35AM didn't seem to be damaged by this at all.


Well I wouldn't be alarmed if it wasn't only one side that looks like this. The pictures are from the same time, just the flashlight rotated 180, to see the other side of the reflector.  
Unfortunately I didn't check how the reflector looked like before the smoke, so I can't be shure that's from smoke.   
The reflector looks ok, If you just look at it, without the LED ON.
The beam profile isn't deformed (the inner circle has some artefacts, but they are symmetrical, and looks like it from the square of the LED)

I tried smoking it without the reflector, but well I'm one 18650 deplited, and it still smokes sometimes.  Will charge some 18650 and try again more on the weekend.

The one think that was strange, was that I had it on turbo without the reflector, after a while it dropped some lumens, but then out of nowhere it ramp up again a little (but it was visibly in 2 steps that it increases brightness), and started smoking.
It wasn't actively cooled, and was just sitting on the desk, so It should only lower the output, and not increase it. 
Haukkeli
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 47 min ago
Joined: 06/24/2021 - 05:27
Posts: 500
Location: Suomi

I had that kind of residue build-up in Convoy with the same smoking problem. I even swapped new reflector in and it did that residue to it as well.

g_damian
g_damian's picture
Offline
Last seen: 18 hours 57 min ago
Joined: 08/20/2017 - 06:52
Posts: 712

Does anyone have a smoke issue with DM11? Or it just is not as visible with TIR?

I’m wondering what’s the difference between D1 and DM11 causing smoke on the one and not on the other?

LuxWad
LuxWad's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 08/07/2021 - 13:22
Posts: 118
Location: USA

I just tested my B35AM DM11 with the optic removed, and am sad to report that it is indeed smoking on Turbo.

Also worth noting my B35 D4VS2 does not have this issue.

trakcon
trakcon's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 36 min ago
Joined: 01/23/2019 - 15:50
Posts: 490

LuxWad wrote:
I just tested my B35AM DM11 with the optic removed, and am sad to report that it is indeed smoking on Turbo.

Also worth noting my B35 D4VS2 does not have this issue.

Hmm…that’s not good. What do you think would be a safe output limit for these?

Hank Wang
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 10/19/2011 - 10:28
Posts: 756
Location: China

LuxWad wrote:
I just tested my B35AM DM11 with the optic removed, and am sad to report that it is indeed smoking on Turbo.

Also worth noting my B35 D4VS2 does not have this issue.


As I said, the smoking issue has nothing to do with the soldering, or the driver,
it’s just that the B35AM can not take high current.
But on the other hand, the smoking issue does not affect the performance or to damage the LEDs,
since there is no B35AM LED failure issue so far.
D4S V2 B35AM version does not have smoking issue since the current is really low for
each LED, only 1A.
The only way to eliminate this smoking issue is to lower the current, which unfortunately, it will reduce the output as well.

https://intl-outdoor.com, Noctigon, Emisar, flashlight components.

id30209
id30209's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 05/17/2018 - 12:20
Posts: 2278
Location: Croatia

trakcon wrote:
LuxWad wrote:
I just tested my B35AM DM11 with the optic removed, and am sad to report that it is indeed smoking on Turbo. Also worth noting my B35 D4VS2 does not have this issue.
Hmm...that's not good. What do you think would be a safe output limit for these?
 

 

3Amp is the safe maximum for an extended period of time as tested by Clemence and others last year...

WTB Titanium 4sevens 2xAA tube

toobadorz
toobadorz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/10/2017 - 09:04
Posts: 188

Let me share my findings with my DM11 (B35AM 2700K, 6V/3.6A driver).

  • Temperature Limit = 70°C, with enough cooling applied, from off to Turbo: no thermal regulation is triggered, however the self-protection of the boost chip is triggered after ~20 seconds (the light blinks, the higher the temperature, the faster it blinks so as to reduce the temperature).
  • Temperature Limit = 60~70°C, no cooling applied, from off to Turbo: the self-protection of the boost chip is triggered before the thermal regulation reduces the output effectively.
  • Temperature Limit = 50°C, no cooling applied, Turbo after a few minutes of use: the self-protection of the boost chip is NOT triggered, however thermal regulation happens very soon (~5 seconds).
  • Temperature Limit = 50°C, no cooling applied, from off to level 140/142/150 (which are about 75%/80%/100% energy of the max output, respectively), the thermal regulation works as follows:
  • Therefore, I personally believe level 140 is a more reasonable max output one should use, since higher levels give quite few gain in lumens but much more heat and really shorter usable period.

 

  • I also tested the accumulated runtime of level 140 and 142.  This kind of measurement is done by turning from off to that level, applying cooling, and turning the light off when thermal regulation or the self-protection of the boost chip happens, waiting until the light is completely cold, then start again.
  • As shown above, the difference in brightness between level 140 and 142 is NOT noticeable, but level 140 runs much cooler and sustains much longer before thermal regulation or the self-protection of the boost chip happens.
puglife2
puglife2's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 10/07/2017 - 17:56
Posts: 581

Can i take the boost driver on a 519A D4SV2 ?

LuxWad
LuxWad's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 08/07/2021 - 13:22
Posts: 118
Location: USA
toobadorz wrote:
Therefore, I personally believe level 140 is a more reasonable max output one should use, since higher levels give quite few gain in lumens but much more heat and really shorter usable period.

Yesterday I ran a couple tests and found that level 140 did not cause smoking to occur, though 145 caused a small amount. It does not seem affected by temperature, just current – I raised the thermal limit to 55C and ran the light on level 140 with repeated jumps to ceiling, then on momentary turbo (140) until it got very hot and still saw no smoke.

On level 140, I am getting ~1,330 lumens, where before my 5000K B35Am was producing 1,600 on turbo.


The fix for this in Anduril2:

Advanced mode, when on, press 10H > wait for the 4th blink, then do nothing. This will deactivate Turbo and set max output to ceiling. Then when on, 7H > 2nd blink > press 1C and then 1H to set ceiling to 140. Do this second step for both stepped and smooth ramping.

I’ll do a quick video on this too to hopefully get the word out more.

Limsup
Offline
Last seen: 26 min 8 sec ago
Joined: 02/23/2020 - 23:57
Posts: 47
LuxWad wrote:
toobadorz wrote:
Therefore, I personally believe level 140 is a more reasonable max output one should use, since higher levels give quite few gain in lumens but much more heat and really shorter usable period.

Yesterday I ran a couple tests and found that level 140 did not cause smoking to occur, though 145 caused a small amount. It does not seem affected by temperature, just current – I raised the thermal limit to 55C and ran the light on level 140 with repeated jumps to ceiling, then on momentary turbo (140) until it got very hot and still saw no smoke.

On level 140, I am getting ~1,330 lumens, where before my 5000K B35Am was producing 1,600 on turbo.


The fix for this in Anduril2:

Advanced mode, when on, press 10H > wait for the 4th blink, then do nothing. This will deactivate Turbo and set max output to ceiling. Then when on, 7H > 2nd blink > press 1C and then 1H to set ceiling to 140. Do this second step for both stepped and smooth ramping.

I’ll do a quick video on this too to hopefully get the word out more.

Thank you toobadorz and LuxWad for the quality research and the detailed solution to the problem! I really appreciate them.

LuxWad
LuxWad's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 08/07/2021 - 13:22
Posts: 118
Location: USA


Here’s a quick video going over the fix. It also shows off the intensity increase you can get by high-seating the throwy optic in the B35AM DM11.
id30209
id30209's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 05/17/2018 - 12:20
Posts: 2278
Location: Croatia

LuxWad wrote:
Here's a quick video going over the fix. It also shows off the intensity increase you can get by high-seating the throwy optic in the B35AM DM11.
 

 

Great video Lux!

WTB Titanium 4sevens 2xAA tube

LiteintheNite
LiteintheNite's picture
Offline
Last seen: 51 min 10 sec ago
Joined: 10/27/2019 - 08:14
Posts: 69
Location: Germany, Berlin

I did the same like in the Luxwad Video with my D1 and DM11 B35AM and with a temperaturlimit from 50 degrees and ceiling 140 they work well and without smoke , thanks !

Friend of Flashlights ;-)

flightless22
flightless22's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 7 hours ago
Joined: 11/19/2018 - 12:07
Posts: 750
Location: California

Hi Hank.

Any chance ToyKeeper and you could produce the ultimate RGB light using the D4V2 with White, red, blue, green emitters?

Also what do you think of this mod?
https://budgetlightforum.com/node/78370

CRC2
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 2 days ago
Joined: 03/27/2022 - 17:32
Posts: 310
Location: Canada

nick779 wrote:
CRC2 wrote:
Not too long ago, I received my first two D4SV2’s, and one of them has a slight gap around the buttons retaining ring.
Im wondering if this is a concern regarding water resistance?
Im a bit worried about using this light in the rain.

I also wonder if this has anything to do with why when the aux are set to low, the four lights under the button have one brighter than the other three.
My other one has a perfectly seated retaining ring, and all four button lights are exactly the same brightness.
Not a huge deal. They both work perfectly otherwise. But its kind of annoying.

I can’t comment on the retaining ring clearances, but those look like warm white button LEDs and it’s been widely established that the brightness not being even is normal specifically for that color.

Ah!, Okay, Thanks. I wasnt aware of this.

xevious][quote=CRC2 wrote:
I think it looks kind of cool. You lucked out that it happened to be the LED on the “bottom end” of the switch as the light tailstands. If it was on the sides… much more “askew” looking.

Yeah, if it had been one of the “side” LED’s, It’d bug me a lot more.

kokosnh wrote:
You got lucky that it’s bottom one.
I got one on the side, that is dimmer. I Asked hank about it, and received this answer

“It’s normal for this small LEDs to have different brightness, since they have different VF value.” 

from my understanding Its peculiar bad with the warm white. 
That’s why for next purchases I chosed cold white.
Testing them is probably to much labor intensive 

And yes, it’s worst in reality, then in the pictures…    

Ooph!, you got the opposite of me. And with it being one of the “side” LED’s too. That’s a bit unfortunate.
Thank you for the info.

Mark M wrote:
The amber color comes out really good, very even brightness. Also very dim when on low which is great at night.

My other D4SV2 has the Amber button LED’s. The Amber is very nice looking. It is perfectly uniform on both the low and high settings.

CRC2
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 2 days ago
Joined: 03/27/2022 - 17:32
Posts: 310
Location: Canada

My main question still remains un-answered though.

There is a slight gap around the buttons retaining ring on my D4SV2.
Im wondering if this is a concern regarding water resistance?
Im a bit worried about using this light in the rain, and washing it under the tap with soap and water. I like to wash my lights.

The retaining ring is only seated about 85% of the way around the button leaving a slight gap on one side.
My other D4SV2 is fully seated 360°.


Mark M
Mark M's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 5 hours ago
Joined: 06/28/2018 - 04:55
Posts: 551

If it were me, I’d grab a socket in the same diameter and whack it once or twice.

Limsup
Offline
Last seen: 26 min 8 sec ago
Joined: 02/23/2020 - 23:57
Posts: 47

I received my D1 (B35AM 5000K with cyan switch light) and I like it. It has nice neutral tint and I think the cyan switch light goes quite well with the grey body. I would like to thank toobadorz and LuxWad for their research on the smoking of B35AM. Following their recommendations, I disabled turbo and limited the ceiling level to 140. I too get around 1300 lumens with my setting. It has relatively low lumens compared to other lights, but it is bright enough for me especially with the focused beam profile.

I would love to see RGB switch light instead of a single color led. I don’ think it is too complicated to implement since RGB aux light is already supported in Anduril. Can’t you just put the RGB aux light into the switch? Is it hard to implement?

LiteintheNite
LiteintheNite's picture
Offline
Last seen: 51 min 10 sec ago
Joined: 10/27/2019 - 08:14
Posts: 69
Location: Germany, Berlin

How is the problem solved with the smoking B35AM in the new batch ?! I heard from first new D1v2 without the problem in Turbo … 

Friend of Flashlights ;-)

Limsup
Offline
Last seen: 26 min 8 sec ago
Joined: 02/23/2020 - 23:57
Posts: 47

LiteintheNite wrote:
How is the problem solved with the smoking B35AM in the new batch ?! I heard from first new D1v2 without the problem in Turbo …

The problem is not solved. My D1 (received a couple days ago) with B35AM 5000K smokes on turbo.

One solution to avoid the smoke would be to configure the light to reduce output. Users found that B35AM does not smoke if output is limited to 140/150. So, I disabled turbo and limited the ceiling level to 140. One thing to note is that this configuration can be reset, so it would be crucial that users remember to configure the light every time they reset or reflash the light.

If you let it smoke with the reflector on, it seems that the reflector gets stained. So, I would highly recommend that you avoid the smoke.

Hank said he would limit the current in the future batches, but it has not been announced yet as far as I know.

Pages