crash-testing a MT-G2 on a copper Noctigon, graph done, mod done and repaired :-)

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djozz
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crash-testing a MT-G2 on a copper Noctigon, graph done, mod done and repaired :-)

....and it survived SmileSmile:

(the MT-G2 after the test, 0.5mA from led-tester)

Ignoring family life once more (girlfriend slowly turning from understanding to quite annoyed) I did some rough testing on a MT-G2 6V 5000K mounted on a Noctigon board and a load of aluminium last night. The test set-up was the same as my more limited MT-G2 test recently, but with a heavier power supply and even heavier leads (16 amp electrical wire for home installation, well soldered to plugs and clamps). The led was so  expensive that despite being me I even did the test a bit more thorough than usual, it resulted in even three video's Surprised. If they are just too boring to watch (I don't blame anyone who finds watching changing digits for many minutes boring): I will make a nice graph of the data when I have time again to do that, it will take a few days.

EDIT: I did the graph, it is in post #16

EDIT: I did a direct drive mod too, post #27

In the first video i turned the current up to 7 amps and used my DMM to check the current reading from the power supply. The DMM gave a reading about 5% lower than the current in the display of the power supply.
I find that close enough Smile.

In the second video I used the DMM to measure the voltage directly at the thick and short led wires to get a Vf reading. I trusted the current reading of the power supply. I measured to over 10 amps (you have to look at the video to see how far beyond the 10 amps Evil ) and found that (you were right comfy !) the output diminishes long before the led blows (in fact I stopped before that). The fairly chunky heatsink eventually even got too hot to touch (120W in the end), so temperature effects may have influenced the results at higher currents. The complete set-up was identical to the XM-L2 test I did a few days ago, so the results are directly comparable. the ceiling bounce lux-readings multiplied by 2.06 give an indication of the number of lumens coming out of the 49mm reflector that was on top of the led (as with the xml2 test, there was no lens on the reflector). One result from the video: going higher than 7 amps does not give significant more output, very close to maximum output is reached at 9 amps. If this experiment with this one led is an indication of how the MT-G2 performs in a flashlight, there is a no need to go higher than that.

After the torture of the second test, I let the set-up cool down to room temperature and did a third run, up to 7 amps to see how much the led had suffered from the high current. I have not looked at the numbers very closely, but it looks like the led survived well, but output has become just a bit lower (don't blame the led for that, after what has been done to it Laughing)

So that's it, the led is going to live another life in a future flashlight build. The graph may take some days, when I have the time to make it . EDIT: added graph, in post #16. Thanks for reading

Edited by: djozz on 07/03/2013 - 19:12
Slewflash
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Holy crap! That was brave of you, and thanks so much for this video, I was wondering how much the MTG2 could take.

They are definitely my go-to emitter for a flood blaster now. No need for multi emitter, just drive it like crazy haha. Just need to find a driver which can give that over 10 amps >)

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this is cruel! Big Smile but also very interesting, thanks!

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Thanks djozz. Terrific effort. If this was running off a nine amp driver, correct me if I’m wrong but the led would only get about 6 amps. If this is the case this driver should be ok. Running 3 26650 batteries and the 5 amp IOS driver the led sees 3.6 amps.

 

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djozz
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MRsDNF wrote:
Thanks djozz. Terrific effort. If this was running off a nine amp driver, correct me if I'm wrong but the led would only get about 6 amps. If this is the case this driver should be ok. Running 3 26650 batteries and the 5 amp IOS driver the led sees 3.6 amps.

You're welcome.

I'm sorry, I am really not a driver guru, I just happily follow what other people try to drive the MT-G2 Smile (me, I want a good 21mm driver that drives a MT-G2 at 4A and runs on two 18650 -IMR- batteries, have not seen one yet)

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Thanks for doing these tests djozz, they are very useful!Keep up the great work! Smile -Rick

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Excellent work, djozz! Thanks for the tests. Now I know how hard to drive my MT-G2 emitters J)

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Thanks for coming through for us!  You da man!  (And I'm sure you girlfriend really was understanding of the need to satisfy flashaholic modsters with test data!)

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Thank you djozz. Your work is much appreciated. Smile

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Excellent work, djozz!  I'm glad the LED survived to live another day. Smile

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Real nice test! Again, great to know. My girlfriend understands but the wife doesn't... Kiss

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MRsDNF wrote:
Thanks djozz. Terrific effort. If this was running off a nine amp driver, correct me if I'm wrong but the led would only get about 6 amps. If this is the case this driver should be ok.

Nope, not with an actual buck driver (i.e.: not a LD-29 or the like). As long as the input voltage is high enough (with some headroom) above the LED's forward voltage at the desired current, the driver should do the rated current no matter if it's a single 3.3v LED or 3 3.3v in series or a single 6v LED. The buck driver in the S1100 does 3.3A to a single XML and 3.3A to a single MTG2. IOS '5.5-12v 9A' driver does 9A to the MTG2 (I hope it's obvious that I haven't tested that one with a single XML, lol). The IOS '3-18v buck/boost'... see below

MRsDNF wrote:
Running 3 26650 batteries and the 5 amp IOS driver the led sees 3.6 amps.

Wait, are you asking about that one, or stating what that combo actually does? Is that the '3-18v' one, that claims 5A to a single LED or 3.5A to multiples in series? If it is, the 3.5-3.6A you're seeing is correct... the 6v MTG2 appears to the driver as two 3v LEDs in series. That 5A number is for only a single 3.3v LED. I don't know why that driver does it that way when other non-boost buck-only drivers don't care how many LEDs there are/what the total forward voltage is, but that's what it is advertised to do, looks like it is doing what it says on the tin.

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Whoohah.. That 2nd video was a bit nerve wracking! Silly
I was almost holding my breath for the poor MT-G2.. WOW 16A.. You sure kept going far beyond the point where max output was reached! J)
Great stuff!
Thanks for torturing testing it. Smile

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Very nice torture Smile
now, dedome it :bigsmile:

 

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comfychair wrote:

MRsDNF wrote:
Thanks djozz. Terrific effort. If this was running off a nine amp driver, correct me if I’m wrong but the led would only get about 6 amps. If this is the case this driver should be ok.

Nope, not with an actual buck driver (i.e.: not a LD-29 or the like). As long as the input voltage is high enough (with some headroom) above the LED’s forward voltage at the desired current, the driver should do the rated current no matter if it’s a single 3.3v LED or 3 3.3v in series or a single 6v LED. The buck driver in the S1100 does 3.3A to a single XML and 3.3A to a single MTG2. IOS ’5.5-12v 9A’ driver does 9A to the MTG2 (I hope it’s obvious that I haven’t tested that one with a single XML, lol). The IOS ’3-18v buck/boost’… see below

MRsDNF wrote:
Running 3 26650 batteries and the 5 amp IOS driver the led sees 3.6 amps.

Wait, are you asking about that one, or stating what that combo actually does? Is that the ’3-18v’ one, that claims 5A to a single LED or 3.5A to multiples in series? If it is, the 3.5-3.6A you’re seeing is correct… the 6v MTG2 appears to the driver as two 3v LEDs in series. That 5A number is for only a single 3.3v LED. I don’t know why that driver does it that way when other non-boost buck-only drivers don’t care how many LEDs there are/what the total forward voltage is, but that’s what it is advertised to do, looks like it is doing what it says on the tin.

Running the IOS driver you mentioned will run a single XM-L U2 at 5 amps with a couple off 18650.
Running the same driver with an MTG-2 with 2 × 26650 will give you 2.88 amps. Exactly the same setup with three 26650 will give 3.6 amps at the led. Dont ask me why.
I think your measurements for the 9 driver were taken at the tailcap.

Not try to take this thread off topic but to answer questions as they arise here is the results for anyone that has not seen them.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/22379#comment-411026

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/22379#comment-411814

 

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No, my 9A number came from a meter inline with the LED. Same setup did 6.6A at the tailcap with 3x18650 (that's a lot - a lot of current, a lot of abuse for the cells & switch, a lot of wasted heat in the driver, and not a whole lot more light than with a 4A driver).

MTG2 running from only 2 cells is not enough voltage overhead, these drivers really need 3 or more cells in series to work properly with a Vf of 6.3-6.6v (depending on current).

djozz
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I did the graph, and it comes with the following notes:

-I noted the data of all three runs, and it all appears to reproduce very well. I thought that at least the third run would show some damage (lower output, altered Vf) from the second run mayhem, but looking at the numbers now, that appears not to be the case, the led keeps performing equally well. The graph shows only the data of the second run.

-I can compare the measured Vf up to 3 amps to the official Cree data, and I measure 0.2 V higher, which is significant. For the higher currents there is no available data, also Match did not publish Vf data of the MT-G2. I don't know why the results differ from Cree (is it real, did I measure wrong, is my -not really trash-quality Amprobe- DMM off by 0.2V, is there a big influence from the Noctigon board?). Well, it is what I measure.

-At the end of the test run the though sizable heatsink was just too hot to touch, so temperature may have an influence on the higher current readings (but then, in your flashlight build that will only be worse, so the data just are more to the point as they are now Tongue Out)

Here we go:

djozz
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Sirius9 wrote:
Very nice torture Smile now, dedome it :bigsmile:

no dedoming for me, dthrckt already proved that dedoming can be very unsuccesful. But the way I am going to use this led will make it look like it is dedomed, but does not throw a bit (*mysterious smile*). I'll get back to that when it is finished.

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Thanks for the graph djozz. With all this work you have done how and what would you use for maximum realistic performance in a largish flashlight, driver and pill wise?

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

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djozz
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MRsDNF wrote:
Thanks for the graph djozz. With all this work you have done how and what would you use for maximum realistic performance in a largish flashlight, driver and pill wise?

I am still not very good in driver electronics (only a general idea of what is going on), so no ideas about which one to use, but I do have idea's of how I think the MT-G2 could be driven well.

I will give a general idea of how I ideally use this kind of data to make my idea of a good useful flashlight, and I guess that is not so far from how some others in this forum think. (My game is usually not about setting records while being totally inefficient and burning through batteries in 5 minutes, that's another fun sport).

Using the MT-G2 most factory lights go up to 5 amps, even the ones that use copper boards (Eagletac). That is a good idea, great output and good for efficiency and gives a managable amount of heat. But in this forum we want a bit more and we are not afraid to get our hands warmed up. Maximum output is reached at 11 amps, but the light will be hugely inefficient at that current, a real waste of energy and probably not good for the lifetime of the emitter. My personal rule of thumb with copper mounted leds is to aim at about 3/4 of maximum output: the led is used very well, the visual difference with max is negligable and it almost halves the current neccesary for the maximum output (the performance graphs of all other emitters have a similar profile so this is valid for all emitters). For the MT-G2 on copper and maximum heatsinked 3/4 of max is reached between 6 and 7 amps, so that would be my ideal. In a flashlight build heatsinking will be worse, but I'd still go for the 6/7 amps Cool. The led alone will produce -apart from emitted light- about 30W of heat at that current, so the build needs a good thermal path and sufficient surface area on the outside of the light.

One remark about why it is great to use these copper boards as opposed to traditional boards in flashlights: because the heat can get away from the led so easily, the temperature difference between led and body is less (I believe it is even much less), so the body can be allowed to get hotter while the led is still performing well. This is advantageous in two ways that help each other: 1) obviously you are allowed to make more heat (the led can be driven harder), and 2) the difference between flashlight body temperature and ambient temperature will be larger so a same amount of energy can be dissipated with less body surface. In practice: I have not tested it yet, but my guess is that when a copper board is well mounted with a good heat path to the body, you can continuously keep running a flashlight that is too hot to touch. One design consequence is that the battery compartment will have to be thermally more isolated from the head of the light than usual (i.e. further away).

Sorry, this is a bit of a long answer, and it is perhaps not even an answer to your question Innocent.

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Thanks for the graph!

May I suggest that once this/these threads get less popular. Start a new thread and just put all your emitter charts in it.
That should be a sticky! If you ever do future tests, everything could go into that once place. Would be nice to only check one post (and thread) for all your recent tests.
Your latest graphs look really nice btw! Great work! Smile

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djozz
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RaceR86 wrote:
Thanks for the graph! May I suggest that once this/these threads get less popular. Start a new thread and just put all your emitter charts in it. That should be a sticky! If you ever do future tests, everything could go into that once place. Would be nice to only check one post (and thread) for all your recent tests. Your latest graphs look really nice btw! Great work! :)

Thanks for the suggestion, a sticky might be a good idea and it might not be; the problem with graphs is that they tend to lead their own lives. In my opinion these graphs should be consulted together with the information on how the numbers are obtained because -at least in my measurements- I have lots of uncertainties about the measuring equipment used that I want the user of the data to understand. The raw graphs suggest an absoluteness that is just not there.

So I tend to think that if a separate stickied thread is made with performance data on these leds it should contain data obtained with calibrated meters and a proper integrating sphere, not this 'I have no idea how accurate the numbers are but you get the general picture' stuff.

(for that matter, I find my own thread back easily by searching 'djozz mt-g2' , and match's sinkpad graphs with 'match sinkpad' , I find that even easier than looking for stickies).

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Please don’t apologise for answering my question. You have put in so much effort with this led I was curious what your thoughts were to sum up. My next question as I value your opinion would be what driver would you use if it is made.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

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MRsDNF wrote:
Please don't apologise for answering my question. You have put in so much effort with this led I was curious what your thoughts were to sum up. My next question as I value your opinion would be what driver would you use if it is made.

At 7 ampere, the Vf of the MT-G2 is 7V, or at least close to 7V. It would have been great to have 7135 type lineair chips that could handle the 8.4V of two li-ions in series, in that case my no brainer ideal driver would be a lineair driver with enough chips to deliver 6 or 7A, running off 2S-2P li-ion batteries.

What is available is one of the available 2/3 leds-in-series buck drivers. Unfortunately they are big and comfychair found that for high currents they need 3 cells in series. But as said, for actual suggestions for drivers the MT-G2 driver threads gives more useful information than I can.

(slightly off topic: I actually think Eagletac has made the almost ultimate MT-G2 flashlight (SX25L3), the only weakness IMO is that they use 3 instead of 4 18650 batteries, I expect that it can only maintain that 2375 OTF lumens of the turbo-mode for a short period when the batteries are freshly loaded)

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djozz, your numbers look great. I think they are perfect for relative output numbers. This is perfect for knowing how much is too much for the emitter. That part you have nailed right on.
Very few of us can measure absolute output of an emitter or light.
The equipment to do that truly proper is way above my pay grade. Beer

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djozz,
Perhaps using the ‘9V’ MT-G2 should somewhat alleviate the issue of achieving ideal overdrive current in certain cell configurations. It takes less current to drive it as hard as the ‘6V’ (e.g. Noctigon, 4S Li-ion, 3-18V IOS buck-boost driver: 9V vs. 6V). Ergo, driving the 9V at 5A is equivalent to driving the 6V one at 7.5A.

Thanks for the sweet graphs and your time invested in them.

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The 6v part works pretty nice in direct drive off 2 cells, does around 5A. The 9v part would be interesting with 3 cells, either DD or a driver that does DD on high mode only.

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Based on the test above, I dared to make a 2x18650 direct drive flashlight mod, and here are some results.

I must admit that I wrecked the light already, the reflector was electrically insulated from the solder connections and led by a piece of Kapton tape, I screwed it too tight, the tape moved and the plus and minus shorted via the reflector somehow, frying the switch. Have to order a new switch now and find a better way to tighten the reflector. But this all happened after I tested the torch out, so it might be interesting to see the results. EDIT: I repaired the light by bypassing the switch, see post#36

I took this torch that I bought on sale from cnqg a while ago:

It is the Shadow TC 300. I removed the driver and led board, cleared the driver from components to use it as a contact board. I tried to make every electrical path nice and thick for handling big amps. Soldered the minus led wire around the corner of the contact board directly to the brass contact ring, soldered some solid copper wire through 4 via's of the positive battery contact plate and soldered the plus-ledwire to that, and used copper braid to enforce the conductivity of the + contactplate spring:

 

It doesn't look pretty but it sure can handle some amps Smile.

So here it is with the MT-G2 on the Noctigon in place. A weak spot is the reflector directly screwed against the top of the led itself, ruining the thin layer of silicon around the dome, it does not ruin the performance of the led, but eventually after screwing it too tight the light shorted somehow. The tests were done already by then.

The first thing I did was to put some fresh loaded Panasonic CG18650CH (IMR) cells in it, and measured tail current without switch: 8.5A . I decided at that point not to improve the conductivity of the switch spring with copper braid, and measured with the switch into the circuit: 5.6A, that is more acceptable to me . I took a beam shot from three meter from the wall, the first is how it actually looked the second one is underexposed to show that it actually has a nice hotspot:

 

Here's a video of the first two minutes measuring ceiling bounce lux. Multiplied by 20.9 it gives a lumen indication (so at start that is 2970 lumen). I stopped the test when the head got too hot to touch.

The smoke coming off the lens are evaporating fingerprints that I forgot to wipe away Laughing.

In the middle of the night I dared to film a very quicky beamshot into the neighbourhood, it is over before you start paying attention Smile:

After some playing around I became a bit more confident about the light, charged the batteries to full again and did a stamina test of 10 minutes at room temperature without extra cooling (even not with my hand). I measured the output:

Afterwards the light was way too hot to touch, but not blistering hot. The batteries were also hot but not that hot, the voltage was 3.74V each.

I also checked some protected no brand Li-ions (non-IMR) that came with a very bad headlamp I had to review (EDIT: removed some unneccesary grumbling Wink), and it still runs at 4.6 A on those (initially).

Concluding I must say the MT-G2 runs quite happily on two 18650 IMR's direct drive. Now I have to repair that switch (or I may not do that and go back to small EDC flashlights where my heart lies Smile) EDIT: repaired, post #36

Hope you like the results, and that the information is somehow useful to someone.

Wink

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Nice djozz. I’ll have to watch the vids when I get home.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

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MRsDNF wrote:
Nice djozz. I'll have to watch the vids when I get home.

Thanks MRsDNF, and I just figured that the tail-threading of this Shadow is anodized, so I can just bypass the switch and make it a tail twisty Smile.

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Great info djoss. Emboldened by this thread, I tried 2S protected NCR18650A’s last night DD. Only pulled 3.65 amps and the emitter seemed quite happy. I know it’s quite wimpy compared to what you’ve been doing, but it was a big leap of faith for me. I only have 3 of these emitters right now and I love each one of them.

Now I’m wondering if 2S2P with the same cells would work too. It seems that voltage sag would still be the same given how much current these emitters seem capable of handling. I will it out try tonight and report back.

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