Talk about future projects and donation topic

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ToyKeeper
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I’ve considered opening up a Patreon account or something in case people feel like donating to me personally, but I always found it a bit odd having a general BLF-project donation fund. Fair and agreeable distribution is difficult, and I don’t like handling other people’s money.

Anyway, The Miller has been mostly absent since late 2017. I don’t think he is really following current events on BLF or distributing donation funds any more. He has been a bit too busy dealing with illness and flooding and other issues.

teacher
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While on the subject of donations, what has become of the balance listed in post # 1???

It was last updated on 1 October 2017….. copied & pasted below.
…………..

Edited by: The Miller on 10/01/2017 – 03:56

BLF DONATIONS OVERVIEW
Total input 830,52
Total spend 344,15
Funds left 486,37

      You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load. / Paul "Bear" Bryant ~/~\~ "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast"

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Agro
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A proposal without a picture as it’s too unclear to me how exactly I’d like it to be done.
Hotrod keychain light:

  • Turnigy 180 mAh 15C Li-Poly (36×8 mm cylinder)
  • TIR lens, one that is available with both clear and pebbled variants
  • XP sized LED (with Samsung LH351D being the flood choice, maybe one of Osrams for throw?)

Now to things that make me wonder…

Driver:

  • Should it be FET+1?
  • Maybe Texas Commander to enable higher regulated current?
  • Maybe driverless to make it smaller? (bad idea, would quickly turn too hot)
  • QTC? With bypass to direct drive?

Controls:

  • Twisty?
  • E-switch? With Narsil / Andruil?

Built-in charger:

  • No, too large?
  • Yes, MicroUSB?
  • Yes, but just include headers to plug a RC charger?

Some notes on the battery:

  • recharging can be really fast, 12 minutes
    • though for durability I’d limit it to 20-30
  • 10 mAh/mm³
    • 10440 gets 9 mAh/mm³
    • 10180 gets 5 mAh/mm³
    • 18650 gets 20 mAh/mm³
  • 45 mAh/g
    • 10440 gets 32 mAh/g
    • 18650 gets 70 mAh/g
  • 2.7A continuous discharge

Considering that sub-10440 batteries tend to be of low quality, I think this one is really worthwhile.

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I still do not see why a simple FET+1 driver would not drive the CFT90.
About the design: you emphasized heavily on the finning (I like that) but still what you have drawn I estimate can dissipate about 25W, not the 100W that you want the CFT90 ideally to run at. But since people do want that 100W (or whatever the 21700 will provide) for a while before the stepdown, you can buy some time with extra aluminium mass near the led, also good for distribution of heat to the fins. So I would suggest a bit less deep fins and a bit more aluminium.

link to djozz tests 

“I used to think that top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that thirty years of good science could address these problems. I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy, and to deal with these we need a cultural and spiritual transformation. And we scientists don’t know how to do that.”   (Gus Speth)

Agro
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djozz wrote:
I still do not see why a simple FET+1 driver would not drive the CFT90.
About the design: you emphasized heavily on the finning (I like that) but still what you have drawn I estimate can dissipate about 25W, not the 100W that you want the CFT90 ideally to run at. But since people do want that 100W (or whatever the 21700 will provide) for a while before the stepdown, you can buy some time with extra aluminium mass near the led, also good for distribution of heat to the fins. So I would suggest a bit less deep fins and a bit more aluminium.

!{width:50%}https://i.imgur.com/Gv4Ke8Z.png!


I would love to know how do you estimate the performance of these fins?

Frankly, I think it would be good to make the reflector like 4 mm larger. Right now it’s quite small when considering the total size of the light. It was just easier to draw it like that because it’s just a modification of one unpublished drawing…..

Making reflector larger would improve heat shedding. Though certainly not quadruple it. My intention with this light was to have fins remove at least 70% of heat. If that was the case, already quite large chunk of metal behind the LED should allow for a nice Turbo times – and superb sustained performance would be a nice bonus.

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Agro wrote:
djozz wrote:
I still do not see why a simple FET+1 driver would not drive the CFT90.
About the design: you emphasized heavily on the finning (I like that) but still what you have drawn I estimate can dissipate about 25W, not the 100W that you want the CFT90 ideally to run at. But since people do want that 100W (or whatever the 21700 will provide) for a while before the stepdown, you can buy some time with extra aluminium mass near the led, also good for distribution of heat to the fins. So I would suggest a bit less deep fins and a bit more aluminium.

!{width:50%}https://i.imgur.com/Gv4Ke8Z.png!


I would love to know how do you estimate the performance of these fins?

Pure guesswork extrapolated from my experience with the S2+ ( http://budgetlightforum.com/node/52757 )
I guessed that the outer surface area of your design would be about three or 4 times that of a S2+ and that an end temperature of 90 degC would be undesirable.

link to djozz tests 

“I used to think that top environmental problems were biodiversity loss, ecosystem collapse and climate change. I thought that thirty years of good science could address these problems. I was wrong. The top environmental problems are selfishness, greed and apathy, and to deal with these we need a cultural and spiritual transformation. And we scientists don’t know how to do that.”   (Gus Speth)

Agro
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djozz wrote:
Agro wrote:
djozz wrote:
I still do not see why a simple FET+1 driver would not drive the CFT90.
About the design: you emphasized heavily on the finning (I like that) but still what you have drawn I estimate can dissipate about 25W, not the 100W that you want the CFT90 ideally to run at. But since people do want that 100W (or whatever the 21700 will provide) for a while before the stepdown, you can buy some time with extra aluminium mass near the led, also good for distribution of heat to the fins. So I would suggest a bit less deep fins and a bit more aluminium.

!{width:50%}https://i.imgur.com/Gv4Ke8Z.png!


I would love to know how do you estimate the performance of these fins?

Pure guesswork extrapolated from my experience with the S2+ ( http://budgetlightforum.com/node/52757 )
I guessed that the outer surface area of your design would be about three or 4 times that of a S2+ and that an end temperature of 90 degC would be undesirable.

It would be wrong to treat those fins literally. I think if such light was to be done, someone should just design a light with lots of fins in this area, adjusting exact fin spacing and thickness to whatever thermal CAD shows to be best within structural limits.
But I was curious whether your 4x was about right, so I did just that: treated those fins literally and calculated area.

I got 5 times the area. So about right. Though in your S2+ analysis I see the light being run at 10W+, not about 6 like your calculation would show.
It seems to me that this light can shed very very roughly 50W with 90 C body temp (I don’t see ambient temp in your tests…can I assume 20C?). Or very very roughly 25W with more sensible 60C. In the winter, with -10C ambient very very roughly 50W again.

Though it doesn’t include cooling with hands, it adds some.
Minor increase of fin area by making reflector larger can help, but not enough.

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One thing you have to watch for with heatsinking fins is that deep, narrow cuts between fins can result in stagnant, hot air at the bottom of each cut that doesn’t circulate because it’s buffered away from the cool air outside by the warm air in between.

This means that you can’t assume heat dissipation will scale purely with the surface area. The arrangement of that surface area in terms of getting as much free air circulation as possible also matters.

There is often an optimal point in width, depth and separation of fins, sitting somewhere on a spectrum of:

  • no fins and poor heat dissipation;
  • through several fins with optimal width, depth and separation for free air circulation and good heat dissipation;
  • to lots of thin, tightly spaced, deeply cut fins with stagnant air zones at the bottom of the cuts and mediocre heat dissipation.

The last option is better than no fins at all, but not as good as the optimal arrangement. In the absence of (expensive and complex) modelling software, it’s not unusual for manufacturers to build several prototypes with different fin arrangements and physically measure which does best.

Agro
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Phlogiston wrote:
One thing you have to watch for with heatsinking fins is that deep, narrow cuts between fins can result in stagnant, hot air at the bottom of each cut that doesn’t circulate because it’s buffered away from the cool air outside by the warm air in between.

This means that you can’t assume heat dissipation will scale purely with the surface area. The arrangement of that surface area in terms of getting as much free air circulation as possible also matters.

There is often an optimal point in width, depth and separation of fins, sitting somewhere on a spectrum of:

  • no fins and poor heat dissipation;
  • through several fins with optimal width, depth and separation for free air circulation and good heat dissipation;
  • to lots of thin, tightly spaced, deeply cut fins with stagnant air zones at the bottom of the cuts and mediocre heat dissipation.

The last option is better than no fins at all, but not as good as the optimal arrangement. In the absence of (expensive and complex) modelling software, it’s not unusual for manufacturers to build several prototypes with different fin arrangements and physically measure which does best.


Good points, thanks.

Agro wrote:
A proposal without a picture as it’s too unclear to me how exactly I’d like it to be done.
Hotrod keychain light:
  • Turnigy 180 mAh 15C Li-Poly (36×8 mm cylinder)
  • TIR lens, one that is available with both clear and pebbled variants
  • XP sized LED (with Samsung LH351D being the flood choice, maybe one of Osrams for throw?)

Now to things that make me wonder…

Driver:

  • Should it be FET+1?
  • Maybe Texas Commander to enable higher regulated current?
  • Maybe driverless to make it smaller? (bad idea, would quickly turn too hot)
  • QTC? With bypass to direct drive?

Controls:

  • Twisty?
  • E-switch? With Narsil / Andruil?

Built-in charger:

  • No, too large?
  • Yes, MicroUSB?
  • Yes, but just include headers to plug a RC charger?

Some notes on the battery:

  • recharging can be really fast, 12 minutes
    • though for durability I’d limit it to 20-30
  • 10 mAh/mm³
    • 10440 gets 9 mAh/mm³
    • 10180 gets 5 mAh/mm³
    • 18650 gets 20 mAh/mm³
  • 45 mAh/g
    • 10440 gets 32 mAh/g
    • 18650 gets 70 mAh/g
  • 2.7A continuous discharge

Considering that sub-10440 batteries tend to be of low quality, I think this one is really worthwhile.

OK, I hate to not have drawings. I still consider the questions above to be open, but I drew pretty much the smallest variant:
10 mm TIR optics, twisty with QTC pill and bypass to real direct drive (thanks CRX), tiny charging connector.
Pictured next to DQG Tiny AAA.

Adding features will make it larger than Tiny. So will increasing TIR size.
Though Tiny has 15-20 times lower output, so maybe that’s not the best light to compare to…
Is it worthwhile? I don’t know. But I’m partial to QTC twisties. Smile

Agro
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I split out the A-lights to their own thread:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60914

Agro
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djozz wrote:
I still do not see why a simple FET+1 driver would not drive the CFT90.
About the design: you emphasized heavily on the finning (I like that) but still what you have drawn I estimate can dissipate about 25W, not the 100W that you want the CFT90 ideally to run at. But since people do want that 100W (or whatever the 21700 will provide) for a while before the stepdown, you can buy some time with extra aluminium mass near the led, also good for distribution of heat to the fins. So I would suggest a bit less deep fins and a bit more aluminium.

!{width:50%}https://i.imgur.com/Gv4Ke8Z.png!


I believe that at some point adding more aluminium is just wrong, it adds too much weight.
If you heat 1g of aluminum from 20C to 60C, it can store ~36 Ws of heat.
If you heat 1g of paraffin wax from 20C to 60C, it can store ~310 Ws of heat.
That’s why some time ago I suggested this:
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1310922

ADDED:
Paraffin wax is 3 times lighter than aluminium, so volumetric heat capacity is just 3 times better.

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Agro wrote:

I believe that at some point adding more aluminium is just wrong, it adds too much weight.
If you heat 1g of aluminum from 20C to 60C, it can store ~36 Ws of heat.
If you heat 1g of paraffin wax from 20C to 60C, it can store ~310 Ws of heat.

I don’t think this is relevant to flashlights.

We don’t want to store heat, we want to transfer it.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

Agro
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JasonWW wrote:
Agro wrote:

I believe that at some point adding more aluminium is just wrong, it adds too much weight.
If you heat 1g of aluminum from 20C to 60C, it can store ~36 Ws of heat.
If you heat 1g of paraffin wax from 20C to 60C, it can store ~310 Ws of heat.

I don’t think this is relevant to flashlights.

We want to transfer heat, not store it.


For sustained performance, transfer is everything, storage is nothing.
For turbo times both matter. In highly overpowered lights (and this one is highly overpowered even with all those fins), storage is far more important of the two.
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teacher wrote:
While on the subject of donations, what has become of the balance listed in post # 1???

It was last updated on 1 October 2017….. copied & pasted below.
…………..

Edited by: The Miller on 10/01/2017 – 03:56

BLF DONATIONS OVERVIEW
Total input 830,52
Total spend 344,15
Funds left 486,37

That is a good question actually.

I have a few manufactures wanting to do a BLF light along with several ideas of my own but I don’t want to do it like the GT again, that was WAY WAY too much manual labor.

So I am looking for options to vastly reduce the manual labor involved in the process and one possibility is to get an outside site with a shopping cart setup to handle a big part of the labor involved with a GB. This would cost something, although no idea how much.

If anyone has any experience or knows of an option to maintaining an interest list and the purchasing of the item in a more automated fashion, please let me know.

If there is some money left in the BLF donation fund I think that setting up a method to make future GB’s much simpler and smoother would be a worthwhile investment personally.

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It seems fairly common for flashlight vendors to come to BLF expecting it to be, basically, a way to market their products… an easy way to make a profit. Generally when companies take that approach, I turn them down because they’re missing the point — although tuángòu happens here, that’s not the purpose of the forum. And if it’s vendor-initiated, I’m not sure that’s really the point of tuángòu either.

However, when a vendor wants to participate in the community in a meaningful way, chatting and collaborating and giving something back, I try to help them.

The commercialization of BLF is a controversial topic, a mixed bag, but I hope we can guide it in directions which are a win for everyone instead of just making the site an advertising platform. I don’t think we need another Massdrop, Woot, or Groupon.

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I agree, I have turned down several manufactures that were obviously in it just for the money already.

The only ones I even consider working with are ones that take feedback and work with us for the greater good.

In this particular case most of the projects and manufactures I am talking to now are wanting to make the next BLF design, they just have different opinions on the basic form factor they would like to make (which makes sense, they want it to fit into their existing lineup).

I guess I should of said I have several production facilities ready and willing to help us bring the next BLF project to market. Wink

teacher
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Texas_Ace wrote:
teacher wrote:
While on the subject of donations, what has become of the balance listed in post # 1???

It was last updated on 1 October 2017….. copied & pasted below.
…………..

Edited by: The Miller on 10/01/2017 – 03:56

BLF DONATIONS OVERVIEW
Total input 830,52
Total spend 344,15
Funds left 486,37

That is a good question actually.

I have a few manufactures wanting to do a BLF light along with several ideas of my own but I don’t want to do it like the GT again, that was WAY WAY too much manual labor.

(snip)

If there is some money left in the BLF donation fund I think that setting up a method to make future GB’s much simpler and smoother would be a worthwhile investment personally.

Thank you, I thought it was too… as well as an important one.

Hopefully the person that has the money will either update the thread if the balance left is not up to date OR turn over the $486.37 so it can be used to do some good.

      You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load. / Paul "Bear" Bryant ~/~\~ "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast"

       Texas Lumens Flashlights  <>   M4D M4X Deals : sign up - save $$$$    ||||

         Rudeness Level /\ mΩ /\ {width:70%} /\ LightWiki /\ LED Tint Chart /\ LED Tint Picture /\ Xlamp size chart /\ BatteryU                   Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???   wink   /\ TheOriginal /\ TAB /\ LightSearch /\ BatterySearch /\ 14500's /\ DiCal                                                       

Macka17
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In reply to a post further back about computers.

You want fun with computers.
Try my decade 77yrs.
We started with pen and paper. Slide rules. Then calculators. Then came games. then came 286 WOW. updated to 386 with a 5 meg HDD. and 5in floppy’s. super wow.

Thennnnn. Mr WINDOWS popped up. with a “mouse”. Quick. hide it from the cat.
No more keyboard and DOSS for everything. Just programming nowadays. Heaven.
Then Win 3 etc. The rest is history.
Linux for experimenters and Apple for. Who knows what??. I don’t. it has nothing that turns me on.

YOU lot have it sooo easy. you could never envisage.. Plus internet that actually moves. and is NOT connected to a ph line that’s “programmed” to drop out every ten minutes
to make them more money with your constant redialling. Yep that was real good.

Win 7 was good, finally. Then 10 backwards steps with 8.5. Whoops, forget that one.

Win 10. Really. is about the best there’ll ever be. It almost runs\repairs itself.
I still have all the sets. and WIN official CD’s. from DOS 5 (7 × 3.5 discs) onwards. Just for nostalgia.
Threw out the floppy’s they started to crack round centres.

We didn’t even have Biro’s in school.
Class prefect. powder ink mixed daily and a bit of wood with a Broad\med\wide. NIB on the end of it.
Pencils were the modern world. and the END of decent freehand writing.
That NIB and it’s two little end bits. Completely control YOU. Look at a modern fountain pen tip. Remove the two little balls on ends of the tips.
THAT’s what we wrote with.

Everything was a “scrawl” after that.

Sorry. just a little nostalgia.
I have “LOVE” Tattoo’d on my left knuckles. compliments of a darning needle and that school ink.
with a snake round a sword on wrist above it. AH the old days . Dumb as. Probably still am hey.
and rambling. just a little . (old age). don’t worry. You’ll ALL get it I hope.
One day.

And remember. EVERY day… is a good day.
There’s ALWAYS somebody worse off than you. Right to the second YOU die.

Take that to bed with you. OK. and wake up to it.

Macka17
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Jeez. I just read that.

Really went on a bit. didn’t I. Sorry. Blame the numbers. 77 on 17th June.

jmm244
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I can’t believe an Australian posted a recap of early computer development without mentioning Trumpet Winsock, Sacrilege! It was the best TCP/IP stack by far, and a product of the land of Oz.

Phlogiston
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I remember Trumpet Winsock! That was about the only reliable bit of operating system functionality on my Windows 3.1 box, presumably because it didn’t come from Microsoft. Never knew it came from Australia, though – you learn something new every day Smile

Macka17 wrote:
Jeez. I just read that.

Really went on a bit. didn’t I. Sorry. Blame the numbers. 77 on 17th June.

Nah, don’t worry about it. Happy birthday when it comes Beer

JasonWW
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Macka17 wrote:

We didn’t even have Biro’s in school.
Class prefect. powder ink mixed daily and a bit of wood with a Broad\med\wide. NIB on the end of it.
Pencils were the modern world. and the END of decent freehand writing.
That NIB and it’s two little end bits. Completely control YOU. Look at a modern fountain pen tip. Remove the two little balls on ends of the tips.
THAT’s what we wrote with.

Everything was a “scrawl” after that.


This part had me scratching my head. Are you saying that in school you had to mix up your own ink daily and dip a piece of wood in it to write with?

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70.2, 26350 cells (4,100 lumen!), Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube

Maukka Calibration Lights for DIY Lumen Measuring Devices 

Review Jaxmnve M1 Stainless 10180 Keychain light

jmm244
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Phlogiston wrote:
…you learn something new every day…

Definitely! I have a habit of visiting almost every open museum I pass by, and am always discovering new things, like the time I stumbled across the Joseph Priestley House in rural Pennsylvania USA. Joseph was one of the main proponents of your namesake theory, even after he discovered oxygen (and invented soda water), go figure:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Priestley_House

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Priestley

Interesting guy, I dropped by the local cemetery to pay my respects after visiting his ex home. I’m sure he would have appreciated LED flashlights and come up with an interesting theory about how they worked, if he didn’t die too soon.

Sorry about hijacking the thread (a little).

Macka17
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There you go. a new thing every day.

In the ’40’s\early ’50’s we had “powder” ink. Mixed with water every morning and poured into the individual kids “inkwell” on the top of each kids desk by individual class “monitor.” (suckhole)

we were pre Biro’and Calculators in those days.
We had a 5in 3\8th round stick of wood with a loose collar round one end. Into which we pushed a “nib”
of differing tip dia’s (look it up on Google.) dip. Write. Dip. DRIP… write. etc.
we all had a sheet of “blotting paper” to stop it smudging too.

And math’s. each page had a line drawn down it at 2 thirds across.
One side of page. The answer. T’other side. the workings out of to get there.
IF the working out wasn’t right. you didn’t get a tick. (you’d looked at somebody’s elses hey)
and nobody got past Junior school UNTIL you passed the three “r’s”
Readin’. “Ritin’. “Rithmatic”

It’s a shame it’s not the same today when you look at the modern Illiteracy that abounds.

Turn the electricity off. ANYwhere. Nowadays. and everything stops. Look at the girls at shop checkouts as an example.
NONE can count past 1-2-3-??
Modern education. on an individual level. Leaves a huge amount of. Lacking. In the real world.

Thank got we’ll (my generation) all be dead by the time those generations get to be in charge.

Hey Phlogiston (Haggis) No beer for me. I’ve got a nice bottle of 46 proof Taliskers Distillers edit., in cupboard.
I open a different bottle of Single Malt for every Birthday. (I’ve had a few to nowadays hey.)
So far. That Taliskers is my fav. Isle of Skye liquid heaven.

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Agro
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Location: Ślōnsk

Seeing how Folomov does 18700 cell with a built-in powerbank gave me an idea….

Take a cell and a Folomov-like circuit. Like Folomov surely does, run a strip of metal across the battery side.
Add a simple aluminium head with:

  • light engine, a single board that has both the LED and the driver
    • don’t make it too powerful
  • E-switch
  • Fresnel aspheric lens near the LED for wide uniform beam
  • USB port

Then use some high-toughness dual-wall heatshrink to seal:

  • a back insulator plate
  • the strip from the positive pole
  • the battery-head connection

20 mm diameter, 75 mm length?

Pros:

  • small!
    • by far the smallest 18650 flashlight, close to half the volume of DQG Tiny
    • among the smallest 18650 powerbanks
  • lightweight!
  • cheap?
  • as always with BLF, superb UI
  • CRI90? 95? Why not?
  • any colour you like
    • GITD on most of the body? Should be doable.

Cons:

  • very cheap look
  • splash proof, not truly waterproof
  • not powerful

Note: Based on 21700 such light would be just as awesome.
Note: a lens similar to that of Fenix E16 would be great as well, but it may be unobtanium

nvanlaar
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Agro wrote:
Seeing how Folomov does 18700 cell with a built-in powerbank gave me an idea….

Take a cell and a Folomov-like circuit. Like Folomov surely does, run a strip of metal across the battery side.
Add a simple aluminium head with:

It’s an interesting idea.
Would that be enough of a heat sink? I take it this would be a throw-away when the battery no longer holds a sufficient charge?

“Facts don’t care about your feelings.”
~Ben Shapiro

Agro
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DQG Tiny has the same light engine design, heat goes through fibreglass PCB to aluminium head. This is enough for 850 lm with XM-L2. Tiny has a much beefier head though. And aluminium tube. And I suspect it may be already thermally stressing the LED.
I guess this light could do half as much.

Yes, I don’t see a way to replace battery unless you’re experienced modder. LED swap would be harder than with most lights that BLF does as well. That’s definitely a mod-friendly host.

Enderman
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A TIR would be more compact and have higher efficiency.

Agro
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Efficiency – yes, a bit. Out of focus Fresnel nearly touching the LED would add like 1.x mm to the total thickness.

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