17mm & 20/26/27mm single-sided DD/FET driver release: A17DD-SO8 / A20DD-SO8 / etc

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DB Custom
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I have the A17DD-S08 at 6.3mOhm and the BLF17DD Ver 3.1 at 6.35mOhm.

This is from A= 5A and 31.5mV and B= 4.9A and 31.1mV

A17DD-S08

BLF17DD Ver 3.1

Dale

Tom E
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Nice job Dale! Sorry, very busy at work now - no time for BLF during working hours and long days. Was just about to try a Mattaus v1.0 driver in the X6 - not sure if it's worth it now, but using 20 AWG of same exact length each, it will still tell me how they do in the exact setup, same light, same LED, etc.

DB Custom
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That’ll be good info Tom, you gonna post a thread on it or where will you let us know how it goes?

And thank you! Wink

Dale

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Not a thread - just finished some tests with the BLF17DD v1.0 using the de-domed XP-G2 S2 and got about 0.15A to 0.18A higher, depending on the cell (SAM 25R or LG HE2). Best #'s for each driver:

A17DD-S08: LG HE2 @4.23v: 3.78A @tail

BLF17DD: LG HE2 @4.22v: 3.96A @tail

Same host, same LED (didn't even remove the LED - it's screwed down), same 20 AWG wire lengths for LED wires, same 22 AWG wired driver spring setup (different spring but don't think that should matter), same batteries.

 

Conclusion:

Well, with just one sample of each, there can be variables I'm sure: quality of reflows, tight driver mount, battery charge differences, FET variations, etc.. Seems slight edge to the old BLF17DD which is kind of what I suspected, but since I only tried one A17DD-S08 up to this point, I can't say anything definite from this - too little data, not enough samples tested, don't 100% trust my methods, measurements, etc. It's not lab level for sure... I would trust djozz more than myself - absolutely Smile.

 

wight
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Catnap wrote:
I can’t find the PSMN3R0-30YLD fet anywhere. The shipping from mouser,digikey and farnell is like $30 to Finland :_( Could someone sell me 3?
Several other options are discussed in this thread. Did you look for those? Rufusbduck suggested one I really liked and I think there were a couple of others which sounded OK too.

Still taking a break. Smile
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
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Tom E wrote:

Not a thread – just finished some tests with the BLF17DD v1.0 using the de-domed XP-G2 S2 and got about 0.15A to 0.18A higher, depending on the cell (SAM 25R or LG HE2). Best #‘s for each driver:

A17DD-S08: LG HE2 4.23v: 3.78A tail

BLF17DD: LG HE2 4.22v: 3.96A tail

Same host, same LED (didn’t even remove the LED – it’s screwed down), same 20 AWG wire lengths for LED wires, same 22 AWG wired driver spring setup (different spring but don’t think that should matter), same batteries.

Conclusion:

Well, with just one sample of each, there can be variables I’m sure: quality of reflows, tight driver mount, battery charge differences, FET variations, etc.. Seems slight edge to the old BLF17DD which is kind of what I suspected, but since I only tried one A17DD-S08 up to this point, I can’t say anything definite from this - too little data, not enough samples tested, don’t 100% trust my methods, measurements, etc. It’s not lab level for sure… I would trust djozz more than myself – absolutely Smile.

… so LED Vf is most likely behind your recent troubles.

Thank you and DBCstm both for posting your measurements.

Still taking a break. Smile
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

cajampa
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These tests have been very interesting to read about, thanks guys

Tom E, did you test the lumens you got from the different drivers?

The most interesting of all of this for me was that Dales test showed a higher output even when the amps was lower.

1405/1455
4.59A/4.50A

Rufusbduck
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cajampa wrote:
These tests have been very interesting to read about, thanks guys

Tom E, did you test the lumens you got from the different drivers?

The most interesting of all of this for me was that Dales test showed a higher output even when the amps was lower.

1405/1455
4.59A/4.50A


I wouldn’t read too much into that without several more examples since it still falls within normal led binning and variation in driver components.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

DB Custom
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Was more interested in pointing out that this FET choice isn’t losing anything on it’s bigger brother. Wink

Dale

wight
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DBCstm wrote:
Was more interested in pointing out that this FET choice isn’t losing anything on it’s bigger brother. Wink
Exactly. We would need very precise measurements and tightly controlled test conditions if we were actually out to prove that one is better than the other. But to prove that the info from the datasheet applies in the way we thought it would? No problem, you and Tom E have already done that, in spades!

All that said, anyone wants to play around with testing different FETs, here are 3 which all appear to have some superior characteristics:

  • PSMN0R9-30YLD – rufusbduck pointed this one out, it has very similar characteristics to PSMN3R0-30YLD but is better. Slightly lower Rds(on) and slightly lower Vgs. Also significantly higher “total power dissipation”. We expect the lower Vgs to ensure that the FET remains more “fully open” on single cell setups.
  • SiR800DP – comfychair pointed this one out to me in reference to this driver by PM weeks ago. I forgot about it until I went looking for FETs which I thought might work properly with the QX7136-based A17LDQX driver and it turned up again in that context. Much lower Rds(on) than our selections so far and even lower Vgs than RBD’s selection. Again, the low Vgs should help keep the FET fully turned on.
  • SiS414DN – Another one which turned up during my search for good FETs for the QX7136. Low maximum current handling, 20A “package limited”. I’m not really sure exactly what a package limit involves, since we know that PowerPAK® SO-8 can handle at least 50A (the SiR800DP is spec’ed for that) and the graph in the datasheet goes way beyond 20A. Even lower Rds(on) than SiR800DP, but only slightly. Similar Vgs characteristics to SiR800DP. Lower Qg than SiR800DP, but I doubt that that will help us any. Costs less than the other two FETs in this list.

Still taking a break. Smile
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Rufusbduck
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Typically we look at Rds on as tied to gate voltage but after slogging through some of these data sheets I see that it also varies with drain current and temp just not as dramatically. Which makes sense since resistance in most things goes up with temp. To test more would you start with the third possibility in the hope of seeing gains at lower cost in spite of the current limit or with CC’s suggestion to find the possible upper limit?

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

DB Custom
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I just ordered 5 of the SiR800DP to see how they work out in comparison. Y’all read the spec sheets, I like how it looks. Silly

Dale

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DBCstm wrote:
I just ordered 5 of the SiR800DP to see how they work out in comparison. Y’all read the spec sheets, I like how it looks. Silly
Big SmileBig SmileBig Smile
Rufusbduck wrote:
Typically we look at Rds on as tied to gate voltage but after slogging through some of these data sheets I see that it also varies with drain current and temp just not as dramatically. Which makes sense since resistance in most things goes up with temp. To test more would you start with the third possibility in the hope of seeing gains at lower cost in spite of the current limit or with CC’s suggestion to find the possible upper limit?
It’s already been pointed out elsewhere (by comfychair probably, and maybe others) that we achieve diminishing returns once Rds(on) gets low enough. IMO it’s already “low enough”. The difference between 10 milliohms and a hypothetical 0 milliohms is probably under 0.2A for an XP-G2, assuming we are at/near/under 5A. That’s just not very exciting to me. (Consider that we are already <7 milliohms! How low do we expect to get?)

I wouldn’t have listed all 3 if I didn’t think that they were all just as worthwhile to test. That said, the maximum gain anyone can expect to see for an XP-G2 is probably around 0.1A, maybe 0.15A – and it doesn’t matter what FET package we are talking about, we’re that close to true DD here. The higher the current, the higher the gains, but there’s still very little to be had!

Still taking a break. Smile
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

DB Custom
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I Want it ALL!

:bigsmile:

As I mentioned to Wight, I will try one of these new FET’s in an Olight M3X Triton if I can’t get the stock driver to cooperate with me.

Dale

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Sorry wight, I just know that a relatively few out there are looking for every last mA. I totally agree it’s not much and to most of us not worth the added expense but until my own head hits the wall something keeps me leaning forward. Although the low on state voltage of the one I suggested was what caught my eye at first, it’s the lower “elbow” in the curve that made me want to bring it to attention. We may not gain anything at all but at this relatively early point developing these drivers I’d still like to confirm what the different options offer.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

wight
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Nothing to apologize for RBD. My point was that anyone looking to experiment should probably buy all 3. (Also that nobody should assume that I will do the experiment.)

Still taking a break. Smile
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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RMM, vias help prevent the lead wires from ripping the pads off the PCB, if you solder the wires thru the via it is VERY hard to rip it out, especially if you over heat it while soldering and/or mod alot, makes the boards a bit more resiliant

Either way C_K and wight are one of the MASTERS of building and designing these lights…I learned alot but these guys excel at it!

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WarHawk-AVG wrote:
RMM, vias help prevent the lead wires from ripping the pads off the PCB, if you solder the wires thru the via it is VERY hard to rip it out, especially if you over heat it while soldering and/or mod alot, makes the boards a bit more resiliant Either way C_K and wight are one of the MASTERS of building and designing these lights...I learned alot but these guys excel at it!

You're right about that, the through hole vias are stronger, but haven't ripped an LED pad off yet so it really isn't an issue for me, but I did want to know what others thoughts were since we all have had different experiences building lights. 

Mountain Electronics : batteries, Noctigon, and much more! What's new? 

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RMM wrote:

You’re right about that, the through hole vias are stronger, but haven’t ripped an LED pad off yet so it really isn’t an issue for me, but I did want to know what others thoughts were since we all have had different experiences building lights. 


I’ve only had a pad rip off once, and fortunately only part of it, and it was on a cheap aluminum MCPCB. Wasn’t hard to fix by re-soldering.

At least now I know to be more careful with my half-assembled driver test hosts.

wight
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ToyKeeper wrote:
RMM wrote:

You’re right about that, the through hole vias are stronger, but haven’t ripped an LED pad off yet so it really isn’t an issue for me, but I did want to know what others thoughts were since we all have had different experiences building lights. 


I’ve only had a pad rip off once, and fortunately only part of it, and it was on a cheap aluminum MCPCB. Wasn’t hard to fix by re-soldering.

At least now I know to be more careful with my half-assembled driver test hosts.

Generally when I’ve ripped pads off in the past (yeah, many times) it’s been because of misbehavior on my part. Ripping LED+/- pads off isn’t something I’ve done much of though. Generally I’ve damaged component pads due to lots of heat and pressure. Before I learned to add solder when removing components I frequently applied pressure to components while attempting to remove them. Between the extended heat dump from my efforts and the pressure it was common to damage a pad. I’ve also damaged SOIC pads after air-wiring directly to them and then manhandling the assembled PCB.

I don’t see it as a problem that needs to be solved, although I’ve been adding big vias when I had space and they didn’t seem to interfere badly with other things. Maybe I should re-evaluate? If it doesn’t have any downside I can see the advantage of a hole for wiring the LED directly to BAT+ or BAT- depending on the type of driver. These PCBs are small and if drilling is to be done it’s better/easier/nicer to let the fab do it IMO. People don’t have to use it, but for those who want to it’s already done… OTOH aesthetically I do not think that the large vias are beautiful and they do take up space that could be devoted to large SMD pads or other misc stuff.

Still taking a break. Smile
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

DB Custom
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I used to try to use 20 ga teflon insulated wire that is very stiff. Trying to stuff the driver in a tight space where the wiring has to be manipulated would pull the pad off the driver.

Now that I use 22ga Silicone insulated wire that never happens.

Dale

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Oh, er, yeah. I’ve removed other pads by accident while un-soldering things. Probably for the exact same reasons. But those were generally pads I wasn’t planning on ever using again.

Through-holes are definitely sturdier, and preferred when possible. Attaching 3×22g wires (twisted and soldered together) to the LED+ and LED- contacts in my SRK wouldn’t have been very feasible without the through-holes on the BLF-SRK driver.

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I asked Matt to put them on the Tiny10 for the sake of versatility and with so many doing spring mods having a single wire go from the top of the driver spring straight to led+ makes some sense(spring carries only mcu current) but yes, since I’ve switched to more flexible wire my pads are in less danger. 0:) Being able to solder the connection from a less crowded side can be nice too.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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This is where I learned what via’s are for (or one of the things), were it not for the via’s, there would be no way to hook up power and emitter leads on this 10mm PICcolo. Heck of a first place to learn, huh?

Dale

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I usually build one driver at a time, as I build the light. Once in a while a couple at once. This time I got some A17DD-S08 boards in that had 6 still together, in 3 “pages” along with a few loose boards. So I thought I’d try doing 12 at once and taking pics along the way, show y’all the video library my camera builds.

Now, my shoulder has been giving me fits for weeks. I’m on meds and kinda loopy. But if I can pull this off, even take pics, then I reckon almost anyone can build one of these single sided boards. No iron soldering involved here at all. And if I’d wanted to really make it easy I’d have put a dab of solder paste at the LED leads so when I go to put wires on these they’d be super easy. I left that out on purpose so the pads would show better. The MCU’s are all flashed, ready to go. So as I get a light to build it’ll be much quicker and easier to do. If it’s an e-switch design I can re-flash the MCU before I start, but the tedious work is all done. Smile

Love these single sided boards! :bigsmile:

Dale

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You should team up with Rich.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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That is some beautiful work Dale, i had planned to use a syringe to apply paste for the reflow but that stencil is just too convenient, how do i order one? and where? is it https://www.oshstencils.com/ because they seem to expect me to upload the design, do i just download the design of the ospark page and upload it to them?

If found this also CREE MTG/XRE/XML/XPG solder paste stencil from texaspyro
https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/dw8NYoED
this will really make things easier Smile

Which paste do you use?

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wight wrote:
ToyKeeper wrote:
RMM wrote:

You’re right about that, the through hole vias are stronger, but haven’t ripped an LED pad off yet so it really isn’t an issue for me, but I did want to know what others thoughts were since we all have had different experiences building lights. 


I’ve only had a pad rip off once, and fortunately only part of it, and it was on a cheap aluminum MCPCB. Wasn’t hard to fix by re-soldering.

At least now I know to be more careful with my half-assembled driver test hosts.

Generally when I’ve ripped pads off in the past (yeah, many times) it’s been because of misbehavior on my part. Ripping LED+/- pads off isn’t something I’ve done much of though. Generally I’ve damaged component pads due to lots of heat and pressure. Before I learned to add solder when removing components I frequently applied pressure to components while attempting to remove them. Between the extended heat dump from my efforts and the pressure it was common to damage a pad. I’ve also damaged SOIC pads after air-wiring directly to them and then manhandling the assembled PCB.

I don’t see it as a problem that needs to be solved, although I’ve been adding big vias when I had space and they didn’t seem to interfere badly with other things. Maybe I should re-evaluate? If it doesn’t have any downside I can see the advantage of a hole for wiring the LED directly to BAT+ or BAT- depending on the type of driver. These PCBs are small and if drilling is to be done it’s better/easier/nicer to let the fab do it IMO. People don’t have to use it, but for those who want to it’s already done… OTOH aesthetically I do not think that the large vias are beautiful and they do take up space that could be devoted to large SMD pads or other misc stuff.


If the plan is to just protect against solder pad rip-offs, wouldn’t a small via (in the middle of a solder pad) work just as well, because it will act as a rivet of sorts? But, pushing wires into the big vias and soldering there is certainly convenient.

Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone.
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cajampa wrote:
That is some beautiful work Dale, i had planned to use a syringe to apply paste for the reflow but that stencil is just too convenient, how do i order one? and where? is it https://www.oshstencils.com/ because they seem to expect me to upload the design, do i just download the design of the ospark page and upload it to them? If found this also CREE MTG/XRE/XML/XPG solder paste stencil from texaspyro https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/dw8NYoED this will really make things easier Smile Which paste do you use?

 

I was also going to buy the stencil but had to have some sort of file to buy one, great work dale similar to what i did but using my vice and hot air station

wight
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I have not been able to get the stencil business to cooperate for me.

Still taking a break. Smile
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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