- The Fake-Cree LED Awareness Thread - The new "low" in Budget lights.

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Lancman
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Ricflair wrote:

Lancman, I would fix that Negative solder connection too on that last photo.

Yes, I only noticed that whilst taking the photos. Now sorted, thanks.

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Lancman wrote:
DBSAR wrote:
The top one appears to have a slightly smaller die?

Possibly just a fraction. To my naked eye the main differences are:

1. The stippling on the silver base is more pronounced on the bottom one.
2. The dome has a more textured finish on the bottom one which obscures the dots in the phosphor.

If I was a betting man I would put my money on the top one being the fake as it comes from a cheap no-name P60 drop-in I won on eBay (for 50p!). They even threw in the bit of masking tape for free. Smile

Current listing

it is possible. as the LB clone of the XM-L2 looks very, very close to the original, but its likely not so bright, less efficient, and worse tint variations.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

RMM
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Yesterday I took some macro photos of a few known genuine XM-L2s...and the stippled texture isn't 100% consistent from batch to batch.  Some of them are pretty smooth, and I know that they are genuine XM-L2s.

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Lancman
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I guess that’s both good news and bad.

Good : My two LEDs might both be genuine after all. Smile
Bad : If there is a lot of variation between batches it’s going to make it even harder to spot the fakes. Sad

keltex78
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This is really obvious, and I’m not certain if this is a definitive characteristic, but I’ve not seen anyone mention it yet:

On my XM-L clones, I’ve noticed the obvious difference in the emitter base layer. While the LB clone is assembled in “Dome/Green/White” layers, the genuine Cree emitter is assembled “Dome/Green/Grey” (Or a darker greenish?) color.

I’ve also noticed that my XP-E clones are all assembled on a white base, but I don’t have a genuine XP-E to compare against. Pics on this thread seem to show genuine XP-Es with a white base, but I’ve not seen a good side view showing the difference.


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

keltex78
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Here’s another apparent counterfeit, which I find surprising! This time from an UltraFire 1226:

Not the greatest picture, but I can’t get closer until I actually remove the emitter from the light. See the squared bond wire junctions and smaller die size. This also has the smooth, green surface without the texture, and the white base I showed in the previous post.

This is strange, as this is still a very good throwing light, even with the presumed counterfeit emitter. This has a larger, and better reflector than my modded Uniquefire V2 semi-clone (my UF V2 has a slightly smaller reflector than the original V2). This counterfeit emitter in the 1226 gives me a hotspot that is similar in brightness to the V2 clone, which is driven at 3A and modded with an XP-L HI. My reference is via a white-wall comparison by eyes only, without any metering. The XP-L HI is a slightly warmer tint which may be tricking my eyes…

I assume this light will be a throw-monster when the emitter is replaced with a genuine high-bin XM-L2 (or XP-L/XP-G2) and has the current bumped up a bit… 8)

Still, the Lattice Bright emitters are surprisingly capable, as this light shows… If they wouldn’t blatantly copy their competitor’s design, and market as “Cree”, they would be reasonable budget alternative to the top-shelf Cree emitters… It’s not the LED I hate, it’s the unethical business practices.


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

RMM
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Here are a few more photos to add some to the mix.  In this case, the 100% genuine Cree XM-L2 U3 2A has very little stippling.  All of these are real Cree LEDs.

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RMM, only the one on the noctigon is real?

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Halo... wrote:
RMM, only the one on the noctigon is real?

They are all real.

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I see what you mean about the variation in the stippling. Maybe my bargain drop-in was even more of a bargain than I bargained for. Smile In terms of performance I can’t tell between the two.

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RMM wrote:

Halo… wrote:
RMM, only the one on the noctigon is real?

They are all real.


Ouch that is disturbing.
So both the stippled texture on the die and the stippling/stippled coating on the silver base is inconsistent.
It appears that the only way right now to know if a led is real Cree is to look at the bond wire junctions, right?

Also, what keltex78 said is interesting.

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Too much variation in real Crees. :~
Even the bond wires are very different in one.

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good photos of the Genuine XM-L2s. All we need to find is a known LB fake of the XM-L2 to get good side-by-side photos of for comparison.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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keltex78 wrote:
Here’s another apparent counterfeit, which I find surprising! This time from an UltraFire 1226:

Not the greatest picture, but I can’t get closer until I actually remove the emitter from the light. See the squared bond wire junctions and smaller die size. This also has the smooth, green surface without the texture, and the white base I showed in the previous post.

This is strange, as this is still a very good throwing light, even with the presumed counterfeit emitter. This has a larger, and better reflector than my modded Uniquefire V2 semi-clone (my UF V2 has a slightly smaller reflector than the original V2). This counterfeit emitter in the 1226 gives me a hotspot that is similar in brightness to the V2 clone, which is driven at 3A and modded with an XP-L HI. My reference is via a white-wall comparison by eyes only, without any metering. The XP-L HI is a slightly warmer tint which may be tricking my eyes…

I assume this light will be a throw-monster when the emitter is replaced with a genuine high-bin XM-L2 (or XP-L/XP-G2) and has the current bumped up a bit… 8)

Still, the Lattice Bright emitters are surprisingly capable, as this light shows… If they wouldn’t blatantly copy their competitor’s design, and market as “Cree”, they would be reasonable budget alternative to the top-shelf Cree emitters… It’s not the LED I hate, it’s the unethical business practices.

Can definitely see the smaller die & square bond-wire pads on that one. Also good you noticed the base substrate color differences. (will add it to the OP photo list.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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anyone know who made the dice?
just how many mfrs of led dice are there that make high power blue dice?
if the dice are cree(yes they sell just the die)then its a half truth.that means the clone makers are using cheap phosphor.or getting c or d grade dice and using cheap phosphor.

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an interesting topic on the Counterfeit issue with buying on (e)bay posted by Muto here: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/41803
it can relate to the thousands of flashlights sold with the “Cree” brand name which arrives with the fake LB or other LED in it sold through them.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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twinclouds wrote:
I am sure Cree is aware of the Latticebright LEDs. There’s no reason why LB cannot produce and sell such LEDs unless there are any patent violations with Cree and other LED companies. It is the issue the latters have to deal with. For consumers, the problem is that many flashlights using LB LEDs claiming using Cree LEDs. If they are marked as using LB LEDs, we can decide if we want to buy it or not, i.e sacrifice quality for lower price. In my opinion, it is should not be LB’s problem.

Latticebright is definitely at fault. I’m no lawyer, but if you sell a burger that smells like a McDonald’s, looks like a McDonald’s, packed like a McDonald’s and especially you make a lot of profit out of it without the acknowledgement from McDonald, then you have already infringed the patent/copyright of McDonald even though your brand isn’t exactly the word “McDonald”.

Unless Latticebright did actually get the green light from CREE to produce these low quality craps, then it is a whole different story. For examples, as somebody has mentioned earlier in this thread, maybe Latticebright resells the grade B products from CREE that has CREE’s acknowledgement with it, or CREE decided to cut cost and they outsourced the LED production to some Chinese companies with the agreement to produce lower quality LEDs…

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Has anybody ever measured output on the LB?
I ask because over the weekend I was at my brothers for his birthday. He had an SK68 with the LB in it and it was actually brighter than my XR-E. It did get a lot hotter though. I think it would be good if we could quantify these things and also see if there are wide variances from chip to chip.

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dchomak wrote:
Has anybody ever measured output on the LB?
I ask because over the weekend I was at my brothers for his birthday. He had an SK68 with the LB in it and it was actually brighter than my XR-E. It did get a lot hotter though. I think it would be good if we could quantify these things and also see if there are wide variances from chip to chip.

The brightness has more to do with the driver current rather than the LED itself. To compare the two flashlights’ brightness you have to make sure both have the same driver current.
As for comparing the LEDs, I would guess Cree will be more bright but no necessary by much.

Twinclouds

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dchomak wrote:
Has anybody ever measured output on the LB? I ask because over the weekend I was at my brothers for his birthday. He had an SK68 with the LB in it and it was actually brighter than my XR-E. It did get a lot hotter though. I think it would be good if we could quantify these things and also see if there are wide variances from chip to chip.

They do put out decent but do not work well driven hard, what sucks is the tint more than anything else.

Besides LED flashlights, my passion is Vintage Mini Bikes and in that field the Chinese successfully cloned the Honda GX200 engine quite a few years back.
And just like here in this field, everyone pointed out the flaws and shortcomings. But as time went on and the Go Cart guys (who really run these engines at a very high Rpms) figured out what changes needed to be made, the Chinese listened and delivered.
Now the Clones Rule and there is a cottage industry of aftermarket parts for the clones, more so than the Honda even.

The China guys actually then produced their own improved larger displacement which did not have a Honda equivalent and it is now top dog in the bracket. Some of the models have Hemi Heads, stock. Models rated at 6.5 hp will do over 9 hp with simple header and Airfilter/Jetting mods. And they are reliable.

All of which makes me wonder if Lattice Bright may eventually make their own line of LED’s, after all Cree reportedly doesn’t really want our market, their stuff just happens to get used for the application.
Gotta admit, LatticeBright did a fine job of cloning these things, look at how long it took for them to get found out.
I now see their emitters in lights I bought at least 9 months if not a year ago.
I thought at the time they were just cheap lousy tint Cree’s and I knew they didn’t do much better when driven harder. Still never killed one.

SO, has anyone De-Doomed a LatticeBright yet and if so, what were the results?
Later,
Keith

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“It’s gonna be herd-developed and that’s gonna happen.”

Yep it already happened

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Lancman wrote:
Here are a couple of XM-L2s from different lights. I can spot differences but is one fake? If so, which one? One thing I have discovered is it’s flipping difficult to photograph these little blighters without decent equipment!

Is it just this picture, or does it appear the emitter in the second photo doesn’t have the same dot pattern in the die/phosphor?

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I was in a Walmart a week ago or so and they had some wacky brand light with a big CREE LED sticker on the front. I was intrigued, but upon further inspection, there was a burned spot in the phosphor. or a manufacturing defect. I don’t think that cree would let that throught QC if it were legitimate.

Curiosity killed the cat……But I’m not a cat…..

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djozz wrote:

And these, http://www.dx.com/nl/p/3w-warm-white-3200k-flashlight-led-emitters-set-d...  :

I guess I’m a little late to reply to this but those seemed like Cree XTE to me.
Are they not cree xte?

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Looking back at this review I wrote in March, I see I included a photo of the emitter on the PCB. The board is clearly printed with “LB” indicating that what I thoughe were poor-bin xp-e emitters are actually the fakes. We just didn’t know about them at the time.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/38450


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

DBSAR
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much the same here as i am discovering some lights i bought almost a year ago actually have these LB fakes in them, and they all have horrible tint and output.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

USSR
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is there any HJK who can do a thorogh testig on these fakes ?

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Hi guys!
Here’s my video unboxing of the flashlight with a fake CREE XM-L2:

Both leds has the same size, but just on the photo it seems different.

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That’s odd… According to the LB page and the pictures (posted also at #1 here) the counterfeit XM-L2 called “XM series” should have a silverish top, too. With the green base, it’s quite obvious to spot as a fake. I’m still waiting for pictures of confirmed counterfeits of XM-L2, XP-G2 and XP-G…
At least, many of these LEDs sit on MCPCBs with “LB”/Latticebright or the LB logo printed on. But I’ve checked all my cheaper lights and found only fake XP-E and XM-L. The ones with XM-L2/XP-G2 look ok. The question is: are they harder to distinguish or not that common in the wild (yet)?

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Besides of the green base look at the direction of the dots and it’s quantity.

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JaredM wrote:
Lancman wrote:
Here are a couple of XM-L2s from different lights. I can spot differences but is one fake? If so, which one? One thing I have discovered is it’s flipping difficult to photograph these little blighters without decent equipment!

Is it just this picture, or does it appear the emitter in the second photo doesn’t have the same dot pattern in the die/phosphor?

I think the pattern is the same, it’s just that the dome has a more textured finish on the bottom one which obscures the dots.

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