Results: Testing XM-L, MC-E, SST-50, and XP-G emitters **Updated**

129 posts / 0 new
Last post
cd520
cd520's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 11 months ago
Joined: 07/13/2011 - 17:08
Posts: 387
Location: WV, USA

Match, thank you for your valuable information with these tests. I have had a 3-4 XML build swirling around in my head and this thread is rich on information. It also answered my curiosities on the SST50's. I know the thread is a bit dated now, but hey, I'm the "new guy". Im guessing that similar info is at cpf but it seems I can hardly stand looking over there for more than 5 minutes at a time.

Have you done a "pop" test for giggles on a XML?

Also something else I would like to see charted- temperature on a smaller given heatsink say after 5 minutes being ran at 2.4A and the same test at 3A.

cd520
cd520's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 11 months ago
Joined: 07/13/2011 - 17:08
Posts: 387
Location: WV, USA

When I say poof test I meant cranking it up (A) on the bench until critical failure.

ergotelis
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: 07/08/2011 - 20:36
Posts: 193
Location: Greece/Crete

 

Match, really thanks for all this effort to provide some good results with a scientific method.

But i am pretty sure that you have done a major mistake in your test methodology, the pcb. You are suffering from high thermal resistance,this pcb is a bottleneck to the great cooling you supply to make this test.

The pcb you selected to make the test is one of the worst i have tested. Even the round 16mm kd/dx base is performing a bit better(the 14mm cutter and dx/kd 14mm base are worser than both, they have a lot of thermal resistance). I don't have any scientific data like you, but after numerous tests, KD 20mm star or 22mm star from illumination supply are much better. Therefore, you can get better results.You would be amazed if you test a 30mm pcb from an olight M3X.

So,i am pretty sure it is possible to get higher performance and over 1000 lumen with a XM-L. With the excellent pcb olight provides, i am measuring almost 970 OTF with a 4.2amp driver. So, it should be over 1100 lumen on the led.

Next time you would like to repeat this test, take this factor into your account seriously. Again thanks for all this excellent test data and really happy to help you with any way(leds, pcbs etc)

Match
Match's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 11/14/2010 - 11:57
Posts: 1488
Location: South Carolina, USA

ergotelis wrote:

 Match, really thanks for all this effort to provide some good results with a scientific method.

Thank you!

ergotelis wrote:

But i am pretty sure that you have done a major mistake in your test methodology, the pcb. You are suffering from high thermal resistance,this pcb is a bottleneck to the great cooling you supply to make this test.

You're correct, there are losses across the pcb. Though, considering a large percentage of the flashlights we use all have the emitters mounted on a pcb of some sort, the test setup here is a bit more apropos to real world conditions than had I reflowed the bare emitter onto the 1" copper rod.

ergotelis wrote:

The pcb you selected to make the test is one of the worst i have tested. Even the round 16mm kd/dx base is performing a bit better(the 14mm cutter and dx/kd 14mm base are worser than both, they have a lot of thermal resistance). I don't have any scientific data like you, but after numerous tests, KD 20mm star or 22mm star from illumination supply are much better. Therefore, you can get better results.You would be amazed if you test a 30mm pcb from an olight M3X.

You may be 100% right, or you may be way out in left field Smile ...  Since I haven't tested or seen data on this particular variable I can't comment and at this point must file it under speculation.

ergotelis wrote:

Next time you would like to repeat this test, take this factor into your account seriously. Again thanks for all this excellent test data and really happy to help you with any way(leds, pcbs etc)

Thank you for the offer of help, and I'm always open to suggestions and input.  Unfortunately at this point, I have neither the time nor inclination to repeat this test.  I just returned from a 3 week vacation in northern Minnesota and I'm finding it hard to get back into the swing of things flashlight related.

vinhnguyen54
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 7 months ago
Joined: 06/11/2011 - 01:22
Posts: 123
Location: Washington

Match,

I feel all LED companies should provide charts like yours. I also wish that there are more drivers available...

xxllmm4
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 11 months ago
Joined: 05/28/2011 - 04:27
Posts: 288
Location: Washington

Thanks for the graphs, this is the first time I have seen them. This is going to make my flashlight selection a lot easier in the future Smile

FX-32
FX-32's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: 09/17/2011 - 23:09
Posts: 530
Location: Montevideo, UY

Awesome work Match! it's just GREAT!!

Many Thanks for sharing Wink

benckie
benckie's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 4 months ago
Joined: 07/04/2011 - 08:36
Posts: 1513
Location: Western Austraila

Awesome job Match thanks

maybe slightly off topic and out of date but is there any test like this with XR-E Q5 emitters as i see alot being driven past 1 amp and all the data sheet,s i see are one amp max i would like to see flux and maybe heat ratings from a Q5 when you push them hard can any one point me in the right dirrection ?

agedbriar
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 2 days ago
Joined: 04/09/2011 - 18:11
Posts: 642
Location: Slovenia, EU

benckie wrote:

Awesome job Match thanks

maybe slightly off topic and out of date but is there any test like this with XR-E Q5 emitters as i see alot being driven past 1 amp and all the data sheet,s i see are one amp max i would like to see flux and maybe heat ratings from a Q5 when you push them hard can any one point me in the right dirrection ?

Joining this poorly disguised plea for Match to include the XR-E in this eminent research.

I have a couple of the latter overdriven from stock as well. Laughing

csshih
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: 10/13/2011 - 15:21
Posts: 104
Location: San Jose

just found this page courtesy of a member of my forum linking it.

well done! The data with the XM-L matches my own testing Smile

 

I can see why I dislike the SST50's performance so much, too Smile

 

C

Ledsmoke
Ledsmoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Joined: 08/08/2011 - 16:05
Posts: 1995
Location: Denmark

Match you are awesome!

I just read the whole darn thread and I´m just still baffled by your dedication to "knowing" and your easy way of passing the info on down the tube. 

Aplaudable indeed 

~ Ledsmoke ~

Dutch humor:

[quote=djozz]

 I do not think that the BLF-community ben

FlashPilot
FlashPilot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 22 min ago
Joined: 05/10/2010 - 16:07
Posts: 4470
Location: USA

Thanks Match. I always wondered if an sst50 could be driven to approach the surface brightness of an XRE. This might do well for a thrower, but then you are well into the power requirements for a descent HID.

srtbrazil
srtbrazil's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 8 months ago
Joined: 07/06/2011 - 08:40
Posts: 134
Location: Brazil

Outstanding job Match, I learned a lot after your post. Thanks

FlashPilot
FlashPilot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 22 min ago
Joined: 05/10/2010 - 16:07
Posts: 4470
Location: USA

Match,

While taking a second look at your test results, Ive decided to scrap the ideas of building a mega high output SST-50 thrower. When examining efficiencies while driven at high current levels, the SST-50 simply isn't a logical choice when compared to the SST-90 or an HID.

I assume that you used the XM-L U2 1C during your tests? Since most people will probably mod using a driver with 8 x 7135's, its very interesting to compare your measured lumen outputs at 2.8A.

Emitter       Lumens

XM-L          852

MC-E          693

SST-50       708

A few interesting realizations (for me):

* To achieve the same luminosity of the XM-L @2.8A, the SST-50 needs approximate 3.6A, while the MC-E requires 4.4A.

* The XM-L gains only 29 lumens when going from 2.8A to 3.0A.

Typical flashlights lumens will suffer far greater losses as heat rises. More often, high junction temperatures are reached fairly quickly. Considering the XM-L, it really does make sense to run at lower amps, especially for applications that run continuously for long periods of times (searchlight, bike lights, etc.) This gives me some great ideas for my next 3 x XM-L bike light. Thanks for all your hard work.

Lothar
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 10/26/2011 - 11:22
Posts: 414
Location: Stellenbosch, South Africa

Very informative thread. Thank you very much!

 

Do you plan on adding more LED types to the tests? XR-E R2 (WG) perhaps, and SST-90? Laughing

dthrckt
dthrckt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 16 hours ago
Joined: 11/08/2011 - 10:11
Posts: 4019
Location: Upstate NY

thanks very much for running these tests.  This is incredibly useful for making informed decisions.

I have a question though, that I don't 'think' has come up here - if the emitter(s) were actively, and well cooled, would we see a higher peak output?  Ok, it would seem obvious it would increase at least some, but I wonder how much.

Really though, what would be useful, is if it extended the nonlinear relationship of input/output.  Instead of plateauing around 2.4-2.8...to say 3.5 SealedSealed

____________________

Girls can shoot!

Match
Match's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 11/14/2010 - 11:57
Posts: 1488
Location: South Carolina, USA

dthrckt wrote:

I have a question though, that I don't 'think' has come up here - if the emitter(s) were actively, and well cooled, would we see a higher peak output?  Ok, it would seem obvious it would increase at least some, but I wonder how much.

Fair enough question....but, for the tests conducted thus far active cooling via fan and/or water would make no appreciable difference.  For the given runtime on the above tests, the thermal capacity of my heatsink setup can be considered infinite (as confirmed via thermocouple/fluke monitoring).  The bottleneck is the pcb.

  Now having said that, I'm staring at a box containing just over half a dozen peltier coolers leftover from a different project.  Using one, or better yet, stacking them can yield near cryogenic temps on the top plate where the star could be mounted.  Considering each peltier requires 150w, the power requirements (and cost) launches the idea out of the realm of flashlight practicality. Although the results would be interesting for curiosity's sake, I don't see myself getting that bored yet to try.

dthrckt
dthrckt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 16 hours ago
Joined: 11/08/2011 - 10:11
Posts: 4019
Location: Upstate NY

Thanks very much for the response.  I've had an internal debate for weeks on buying copper PCB xmls (instead of aluminum) for a project.  I think it will be worth the extra money to buy copper.

I think you're right about the impracticality of a peltier.  But let's hope for some new advancements in battery technology to change that Smile

Even if they do, it will probably be up to us to build such things - at least on MY budget...

____________________

Girls can shoot!

Match
Match's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 4 months ago
Joined: 11/14/2010 - 11:57
Posts: 1488
Location: South Carolina, USA

Folks,

  Updated with XP-G data in the first post.  I also cleaned it up a bit, like fixing that horrible non-linear graph for the xm-l.  

-Match

Langcjl
Langcjl's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 03/05/2011 - 05:36
Posts: 2162
Location: Wisconsin USA
Great. Thanks Match.

Piers said " ....but who wants enough light, when you have the option for far too much "

Ledsmoke
Ledsmoke's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Joined: 08/08/2011 - 16:05
Posts: 1995
Location: Denmark

This post has really become my reference post when deciding about current levels.

Thanks a lot M8 Smile

~ Ledsmoke ~

Dutch humor:

[quote=djozz]

 I do not think that the BLF-community ben

E1320
E1320's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/30/2011 - 05:26
Posts: 3369
Location: New Hampshire

That's crazy I have been pushing XPGs to 2.2 amps (8 chip Nanjg driver with 2 removed) because that's were they looked the brightest by eye and it was right on the money.

I am already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.

agedbriar
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 2 days ago
Joined: 04/09/2011 - 18:11
Posts: 642
Location: Slovenia, EU

Many thanks for this addition, Match!

(Standing by for the XR-E ... Smile )

Budgeteer
Budgeteer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 10 months ago
Joined: 08/24/2010 - 02:19
Posts: 3087
Location: Slovenia (EU)

I would really love to se an XP-E or XR-E q5 led in the mix. Smile I still like them.

kragmutt wrote:

They're gonna send you a green redcat with a black LED.

garrybunk
garrybunk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 6 hours ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 09:25
Posts: 6028
Location: Johnstown, PA
Thanks Match! Been waiting for this info to build my XP-G project. Question now is, is it worth the sacrifice of runtime to get a little more light. I'm looking at 600mA to gain about 50 lumens. I don't think it's worth it. Still seams like 1.4A is the sweet spot for runtime vs. output.

-Garry

My Bike Lights Thread, Optics (TIR) Comparison Beamshots, Diffusion Techniques


NOTE: Moving my photos from PhotoBucket to Flickr. PM me or post in the thread if you can’t see my images and need me to fix or send a gallery link. PhotoBucket images should remain visible until November 2018.
dthrckt
dthrckt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 16 hours ago
Joined: 11/08/2011 - 10:11
Posts: 4019
Location: Upstate NY

____________________

Girls can shoot!

Boaz
Boaz's picture
Online
Last seen: 13 sec ago
Joined: 11/07/2010 - 09:31
Posts: 6603
Location: Birthplace of Aviation

2.2A  xpg is exactly what the N-light B2s stainless steel lights are running on the 14500 ..

           always got a ..."WOW that's bright".... from the crowd ...

                    ooooohh....aaaahh.

 

καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

agedbriar
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 2 days ago
Joined: 04/09/2011 - 18:11
Posts: 642
Location: Slovenia, EU

And what would be a similarily "bold" current for an XR-E?

garrybunk
garrybunk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 6 hours ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 09:25
Posts: 6028
Location: Johnstown, PA

oldbobk,
        So are you saying the affect on runtime is negligible between running 1.4A vs. running 2.1A?  That doesn't make any sense to me. 

        I also don't know if I'm up to the challenge of removing two of those chips!  I'd probably look into the newer KD driver (and deal with a lousy low, or go 2 mode).

-Garry

My Bike Lights Thread, Optics (TIR) Comparison Beamshots, Diffusion Techniques


NOTE: Moving my photos from PhotoBucket to Flickr. PM me or post in the thread if you can’t see my images and need me to fix or send a gallery link. PhotoBucket images should remain visible until November 2018.
E1320
E1320's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/30/2011 - 05:26
Posts: 3369
Location: New Hampshire

garrybunk wrote:

oldbobk,
        So are you saying the affect on runtime is negligible between running 1.4A vs. running 2.1A?  That doesn't make any sense to me. 

        I also don't know if I'm up to the challenge of removing two of those chips!  I'd probably look into the newer KD driver (and deal with a lousy low, or go 2 mode).

-Garry

The difference in run time with a 2400mah battery would be about 100 minutes for the 1.4 and 70 minutes for the 2.1 amp high, but I never use high when I am concerned about runtime.

Send me a PM when you are ready to remove the chips I can walk you through it or I can send you one premade if you want.

I am already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.

Pages